Frustration with gun misses.

[gunnersman]

I am often frustrated with misses at ranges under 500 meters and even under 200 meters when tanks shoot. Especialy the Tiger with its 88. I can see missing once or twice around the 500 meter range but anything less should be a sure thing I would think. When you read the muzzle velocities of the guns on the tanks they read anywhere from 600+mps. That means it takes one second for the round to go 600 meters. Now when you are under that range the trajectory is nearly flat, is it not? How in the hell could a tank miss off to the right or left!? I can see over shooting or under shooting, slightly. I am frustrated when a tank of mine shoots at another from 300 meters away and misses by at least 50 meters left or right. Or it takes the tank 5 shots to finaly get a shot in. I understand about bracketing and all that. But I thought that was necessary at longer ranges. But all this missing going on is a bunch of horse dung! I have read other postings talking about being in the heat of battle and many variables affect the gunners ability to shoot, such as being shot at and the tank moving and the pucker factor and such. That all makes sense. But what about when the tank is standing still and the tank has an elite crew and not being shot?

I have played some tank sim games in the past like M1 Tank Platoon and Panzer Elite and they seem to have modeled their ballistics well. I know I am not in the same position as the gunner in the real world, but it was never hard for me to shoot other tanks at ranges 500 meters or less in my games, sitting still.

I know you guys at battlefront like accuracy, as far as history and battle is concerned. I think there are legitmate concerns here.

[109 Gustav]

As you said, tanks moving and crew experience weigh heavily on accuracy. However, shooting a target at 500m isn't easy, even with a tank's cannon. In a tank's turret, it's going to be hard to tell where the target will move next. If it is moving, you have to think a second or two in advance to lead the target. You won't have a clue how much to adjust for windage, because you're in a steel can. Try shooting 500m with a rifle. If you have only one second to aim before the tank you're shooting at blows you away, you'll find that you will not be able to hit a tank sized target with every shot under even the best conditions.

Besides, as Forrest Gump said, S*** happens. He evidently understood the difficulties of shooting at long ranges.

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No one but the enemy will tell you what the enemy is going to do. No one but the enemy will ever teach you where you are weak. Only the enemy tells you where he is strong. And the rules of the game are what you can do to him and what you can stop him from doing to you. -Ender's Game

[Juardis]

I cannot offer authoritative evidence one way or the other as to the accuracy of the CM modeling. But I will say this. I share in your frustration.

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Jeff Abbott

[Guest Big Time Software]

Oh boy... if I had a dime for everybody that thought German tanks should hit targets like they are shooting lasers, I would be a millionare Heck, this is the second thread started up in the last day or two.

Simply put -> your expectations for hitting are far, far too high. If you really are concerned about CM's modeling of accuracy, I would suggest you look at the following thread:

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/011342.html

Note that for 12 pages there has been very little put forward to show that CM's modeling is inaccurate, but by page 13 plenty of evidence to show that it is indeed "pretty close" at the very least. Is it perfect? No, I am sure it is not. But I can tell you that the way it is now is FAR more realistic than what the average gamer would come up with if he was allowed to call the shots.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 10-31-2000).]

[M. Bates]

Not only is there a minor problem with long range engagements, but get this:

As a test I set up two German Panthers 50m from each other. Each Panther was given a ground target which was directly where the other Panther was.

After 20 turns, all that had happened was that the Panthers had immobilised each other AT POINT BLANK RANGE.

It was as if they were firing THROUGH each other at the ground!!

[gunnersman]

What I am refering to, though, is that fact that it seems tanks can be right next to one another and fire and miss completely after having plenty of time to aim while not even moving. This seems to happen at close as well as medium range engagements. I am not so concerned with long range engagements.

[gunnersman]

Dont get me wrong, I love the game. I dont know whether the models are innacurate. All I know is it seems way too many shots are being taken at distances where it doesnt seem necessary, such as at a few hundred meters or less especially under 200 meters.

I dont mean to insult your creation, guys. I just feel strongly about what I see.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Crush the enemy, see him driven before you, hear the lamentations of the women<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Guest Big Time Software]

M.Bates... what the heck kind of test is that? Talk about unscientific testing to prove a point... First of all, if the tank is aiming at the ground, what do you expect? A turret side hit? As has been discussed dozens of times already, a tank can only hit what it is aiming at, and since a tank can not target another friendly tank, it can not be made to hit it.

Gunnersman, "plenty of time" would actually be something like several minutes. This is not what happens under combat conditions, and therefore the gunner in the example you gave did not in fact have "plenty of time". It is quite possible to miss at close ranges. If you have some body of evidence to suggest that this is in fact not the case, please feel free to present it in the accuracy thread linked to above. But if you only have your own personal opinion (and I assume you aren't a tanker veteran) I suggest that is not good enough. No offense, but we do not make changes to CM based on uniformed suggestions, especially when they run counter to documented sources and first hand experience.

Steve

[Stuka]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

Oh boy... if I had a dime for everybody that thought German tanks should hit targets like they are shooting lasers, I would be a millionare

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't be so modest Steve, surely you are a millionare already...

Or maybe its just Charles...

It might pay to re-check Charles' accounting procedures.

[Slapdragon]

gunnersman, I understand what you are saying, but you may just need to rephrase what you are saying, with some math and an example of how it should be changed. The problem is that they use a fairly accurate physics model, and changing the model involves more than just giving all germans an across the board +20% hit or kill ratio, especially when some of the earlier suggestions were making German WW2 tanks more accurate than US M1 Abrams tanks in modern modelling.

To really get their attention, you could create a mathematical physics model that uses Geometric principals and statistics to model the flight of a shell in a way that can be coded, and back it up with some technical and historical data.

The problem is that they get dozens of "why can't the Germans be more powerful" threads every month.

[Slapdragon]

Bates --

You are doing a test, but you need to do a statistical sample and base the sample on the question "how accurate are German tanks in CM?"

For example. Line up a row of 10 M4s, and 10 Panthers. Let them take one shot. Count hits. Take a second shot, count hits, take a third shot, count hits. Repeat this test 5 times for 50 test fires. Report it this way.

At 1000 meters I did a test fire of 50 Panthers firing at the side of 50 Shermans with FOW turned off and the Sherman's dug in. 8 Panthers scored hits on the first round, 18 on the second, and 24 on the third.

This gives you enough test runs to make sure you are probably not getting a complete fluke, and I can set up the same test and give it a shot also.

[elementalwarre]

think about it like this:

- sprint 100 meters with a rifle - safety on and nothing in the receiver!

- stop and shout 'pull!' to your friend, standing at the distance where the target covers the same arc as a tank at 200 meters, or whatever distance you think a gunner should hit accurately

- see how many shots hit

tell your friend to be behind sandbags/trees/stuff that will stop a bullet

you might be surprised. i know i was, even more than having my friend agree to do it

note this is while you're -not- being shot at. also you're using a machine with rather less to adjust than a tank cannon

[M. Bates]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You are doing a test, but you need to do a statistical sample and base the sample on the question "how accurate are German tanks in CM?"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I already have!!

2 Panthers, 50 metres from each other and with varying targets but always aimed at killing the other tank.

I bet that no one on this forum can conduct a similar test and suceed in destroying just one Panther over the course of 60 turns.

Is anyone out there up to the challenge and able to post screenshots to the forum??

[Walter]

OHMIGOD!,

You're shooting at the ground! THE GROUND I TELL YOU! NOT THE OTHER PANTHER! Get serious, set up a serious test and people will take what you say seriously.

Cheers,

Walter R. Strapps

[Slapdragon]

That is not a statistical test.

#1 two Panthers shooting at each other? Ever thought that may be a rare condition? Perhaps your counfounding variable is that friendlies will not target friendlies.

#2, assuming you fix #1 putting two tanks next to each other and pinging away says nothing because a sample of two does does not generate a universe that can be successfully used in the simpler statistics. Even 40 makes for a big margin of error but at least it is useful..

[Maj. Bosco]

Um.... Bates. When tanks shoot at something they either hit or they hit the terrain. They don't hit other units. In your test because your tanks aren't shooting at each other (because they can't) they can't kill each other. They can immobilize each other because that can be caused by explosions near treads and the tanks will fire HE if they're shooting at the ground. You can look up plenty of valid tests using the search engine. Don't have two tanks do it. Have 40 tanks do it. Have them all do it the same. Tally up the results. Do a regression analysis and include statistical error. That's valid. Also, do not do things that can't work like trying to have panthers kill each other. They can't.

[This message has been edited by Maj. Bosco (edited 11-01-2000).]

[Theron]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M. Bates:

I already have!!

2 Panthers, 50 metres from each other and with varying targets but always aimed at killing the other tank.

I bet that no one on this forum can conduct a similar test and suceed in destroying just one Panther over the course of 60 turns.

Is anyone out there up to the challenge and able to post screenshots to the forum??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is well known from other threads that your tanks can shoot through each other, or even other enemy tanks when firing at a target. This is a limitation in the method that is used for line of sight (LOS). Remember that vehicles don't block LOS.

Therefore in your test of shooting at the ground neither panther blocks LOS to the ground. The panthers become immobilized due to the explosions.

Theron

[aka_tom_w]

OK

Someone needs to say it! (RATS, Theron and Maj Bosco beat me to it!)

In this Game Friendly units shoot RIGHT Through EACH other as though they were not there.

you cannot target friendly unit.

Your tanks all in a row or column, will shoot RIGHT through each other without any damage as live and Dead non-smoking vehicles do not block LOS or LOF, ever.

Please read the thread Steve mentioned, and only test gun ranges and accuracy on enemy AFV's

Simple, the game will NOT let you Target a Friendly unit. Period.

-tom w

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 11-01-2000).]

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 11-01-2000).]

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maj. Bosco:

Um.... Bates. When tanks shoot at something they either hit or they hit the terrain. They don't hit other units. In your test because your tanks aren't shooting at each other (because they can't) they can't kill each other. They can immobilize each other because that can be caused by explosions near treads and the tanks will fire HE if they're shooting at the ground. You can look up plenty of valid tests using the search engine. Don't have two tanks do it. Have 40 tanks do it. Have them all do it the same. Tally up the results. Do a regression analysis and include statistical error. That's valid. Also, do not do things that can't work like trying to have panthers kill each other. They can't.

[This message has been edited by Maj. Bosco (edited 11-01-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

(action) Slapdragon tilts his hat at Bosco.(/action)

[M. Bates]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You're shooting at the ground! THE GROUND I TELL YOU! NOT THE OTHER PANTHER! Get serious, set up a serious test and people will take what you say seriously.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I might be shooting at the ground BUT THERE IS A MASSIVE TANK RIGHT ON TOP OF IT.

I did not know that friendly units are invincible.

Seems silly when in the real war an amount of soldiers were killed by their own side accidently.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Hehe... just for giggles I took Bates up on his challenge. I put 5 Panthers up against 5 Easy 8s at 50m. Guess what happened? One shot one kill in all five cases (3 Panthers, 2 Shermans). I am sure I could waste my time running this test 10 more times to get a better sample, but I think this one waste of time is enough

Steve

[Guest Big Time Software]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Seems silly when in the real war an amount of soldiers were killed by their own side accidently.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but they weren't ORDERED to do this. So CM does not allow deliberate targeting of friendly units. However, friendly fire in CM does happens, especially at night. You just can't do ut on purpose.

Steve

[Slapdragon]

OK, what you are really testing is fratricide, but your test was actually a test of fragging since it was a test of purposeful damaging.

1) Fratricide is not modelled so no need to test it. I concede that only near misses with HE will cause fratricide like events.

2) Fragging is not only not modelled, but should not be. How many friendly tanks try on purpose to shoot each other?

This would have been easier for all of us if it had been more clear what your thesis was.

[Walter]

Yes, there is a tank right on top of it, and at a certain frequency you were immobilising the tanks, sort of what you'd expect if you were firing at the ground in front of/to the side of a tank. Plus I bet you didn't have the tanks at realistic scale did you? So in fact you were targetting even further away from where the tank actually was located.

P.S. If tankers fired at the ground instead of at other tanks, I'd love to go up against them, it would make life much easier.

Cheers,

Walter R. Strapps

[Medieval]

I think tanks hit too often in this game.... tankers were not surrounded by computer models or such. There are many MANY things that went into a tank's accuracy and firing ability at all ranges. In fact, I think that tanks are too easy to kill in this game at times.

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And Fun is Good."

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