Pedro Posted December 13, 2000 Share Posted December 13, 2000 Ask yourself this guys: What tank would you buy if you had an upcoming operation that would include a mix of scenarios from meeting engagements to assaults? Lets say your going to fight 10 to 15 battles in varying terrain with occasional additional support and make the operation during the years 1944 to 1945. Choose any side Russian, British, German or whatever. You get to purchase a platoon of 4 or 5 tanks all the same model to get through your operation. What tank will you choose? I'll tell you mine, the Panther. That is until the M26 enters the fight. Pete ------------------ " the recruits are salty,they are ready to eat their own guts and ask for seconds." [This message has been edited by Pedro (edited 12-12-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob/1 Posted December 13, 2000 Share Posted December 13, 2000 I would have to chose a Kingtiger or Jagdtiger. ------------------ Game master of Robs CMC Join Robs CMC2 today! Email me at RobsCMC@hotmail.com Rob -------------------------- For more info on Rob's CMC go to Robs CMC HQHome of Robs CMC Members of my CMC should join my CMC chat bord. Robs CMC Board BHQS board Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergeltungswaffe Posted December 13, 2000 Share Posted December 13, 2000 Not ashamed to say I'm a KT lover, but Panther would be the choice, without a doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted December 13, 2000 Share Posted December 13, 2000 Soviets, masters of armored combat. JS2 or better yet the JS3. Hey, it was out in 45' Or, for the same amount of points double that number of T-34/85's Cheers! ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" [This message has been edited by The Commissar (edited 12-12-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted December 13, 2000 Share Posted December 13, 2000 Let see: King Tiger/ JagdTiger: Too big, too slow, too prone to breakdown. JagdPanther - Nice gun, great survivabilty, but lack of a turret limits general purpse usefulness. Allied tanks: Assuming the Pershing and Comet and such are not options, there are no allied tanks I would take over a Panther. So, I will go with the all around best medium tank of the war, the PzKpfwV Panther. And hope for air support so I can get some gas for the damn thing. Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted December 13, 2000 Share Posted December 13, 2000 Three general purpose tanks, one close support tank and one anti-tank tank. Should cover all the bases. Two GP Tanks to support the AT tank and one to support the close support tank. ------------------ Scarred on a hundred fields before Naked and starved and travel-sore Each man a tiger hunted; They stood at bay as brave as Huns The last of the Old South's splendid sons Flanked by ten thousand shotted guns And by ten thousand fronted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Eyes Posted December 13, 2000 Share Posted December 13, 2000 The Panther was the best all-round tank of WWII, IMHO. However, I prefer the JSIIm. Reasonable speed, good armor and a whopping 122mm main gun. Even a near miss could take out an enemy AFV. Infantry positions and bunkers can easily be smashed with such a large caliber weapon. It carried only 28 rounds (10 AP, 18 HE basic load) and had a slow rate of fire due to its two part ammo. However, I think it will be a real killer in CM2. ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop [This message has been edited by Snake Eyes (edited 12-12-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ckoharik Posted December 13, 2000 Share Posted December 13, 2000 Anyone have the other pertinent specs on the JSII? Armor thickness, speed, etc. Already eagerly anticipating CM2....damn... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Eyes Posted December 13, 2000 Share Posted December 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ckoharik: Anyone have the other pertinent specs on the JSII? Armor thickness, speed, etc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Check out http://history.vif2.ru/ ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splinty Posted December 13, 2000 Share Posted December 13, 2000 T34/76 ------------------ Nicht Schiessen!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted December 13, 2000 Share Posted December 13, 2000 I have to agree with the Commissar, the T-34/85 was probably the best Russian tank in the war. It was manufactured in high numbers wasn't it? I don't have any reference books on Russian AFVs of WWII, but seeing that other games, such as Talonsoft's East Front, there seemed to be quite a few of them in late '43 to '45. Those big heavy Russian tanks like the JS/2 and JS/3, I would guess that there weren't many of those on the battlefield. [This message has been edited by Maximus (edited 12-12-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CATguy Posted December 13, 2000 Share Posted December 13, 2000 Perhaps a firefly or a sherman 76. I always know I will have friendly skies and pleny of artillery support! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pedro Posted December 13, 2000 Author Share Posted December 13, 2000 I didn't limit my question by specifying whether you could choose a heavy tank or a tank destroyer. All AFV's are eligible. But there has to be a balance between mobility, firepower and protection. CM is too tactical to allow for the real shortcomings of a Panther to be exposed. These are mainly reliability issues(i.e., spare parts, fuel etc). Apart from that the only tactical drawbacks to a Panther that I find are its slow turret and lack of a turret mounted HMG. With these tactical limitations in mind I still think the Panther and M26 are my logical choices. As for the those who chose the T34 series it is a good choice. I would definetly choose a T34/85 over earlier model T34's. Even so the T34/85 only has one tactical advantage over a Panther and that is mobility. The 85mm proved only marginally better ballistically than the US 76mm. When considering the sad state of Russian optics and subpar AP rounds I'd rather have an M4A3E8 and some (t) rounds than a T34/85. As for the JS series particularly the JS II. I would hate to go to a tank fight with only 10 AP rounds per tank. ------------------ " the recruits are salty,they are ready to eat their own guts and ask for seconds." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted December 13, 2000 Share Posted December 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pedro: I didn't limit my question by specifying whether you could choose a heavy tank or a tank destroyer. All AFV's are eligible. But there has to be a balance between mobility, firepower and protection. CM is too tactical to allow for the real shortcomings of a Panther to be exposed. These are mainly reliability issues(i.e., spare parts, fuel etc). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, CM is quite capable of pointing out the weakness of the Panther. The things you mentioned were weaknesses of the German supply and logistics system, not the vehicle itself. The real weakness of the Panther was its very weak armor on the sides and rear. This made it a marginal infantry support tank, since it could not get very close without risking some plucky farmer from Iowa ramming a bazooka up i.. well shooting it somewhere other than fron anyway. The Panther can be killed from the side with the lowly 57mm AT gun. Jeff Heidman Apart from that the only tactical drawbacks to a Panther that I find are its slow turret and lack of a turret mounted HMG. With these tactical limitations in mind I still think the Panther and M26 are my logical choices. As for the those who chose the T34 series it is a good choice. I would definetly choose a T34/85 over earlier model T34's. Even so the T34/85 only has one tactical advantage over a Panther and that is mobility. The 85mm proved only marginally better ballistically than the US 76mm. When considering the sad state of Russian optics and subpar AP rounds I'd rather have an M4A3E8 and some (t) rounds than a T34/85. As for the JS series particularly the JS II. I would hate to go to a tank fight with only 10 AP rounds per tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Eyes Posted December 13, 2000 Share Posted December 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pedro: As for the JS series particularly the JS II. I would hate to go to a tank fight with only 10 AP rounds per tank.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The basic load for a JSII called for 10 AP and 18 HE rounds. I would expect the ratio to be altered if the crew was expecting to engage enemy armor. In any case, a turret hit by a 122mm HE round could knock the turret completely off and/or kill the crew. Every tank has its strengths and its weaknesses. One of the challenges of CM and any wargame is to use your side's strengths against your opponents weaknesses. The one who does that the best will usually win. ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pedro Posted December 13, 2000 Author Share Posted December 13, 2000 "The real weakness of the Panther was its very weak armor on the sides and rear. This made it a marginal infantry support tank, since it could not get very close without risking some plucky farmer from Iowa ramming a bazooka up i.. well shooting it somewhere other than fron anyway. The Panther can be killed from the side with the lowly 57mm AT gun." Jeff, The Panthers lack of armor on the side and rear is not specific to the Panther but of all WWII medium tanks. It is a design compromise that still holds true today. Simply put most hits to an MBT occur in the frontal arc, hence more armor to the front. Any WWII medium tank is vulnerable to any number of small AT guns and infantry AT weapons from the side and rear. Pedro ------------------ " the recruits are salty,they are ready to eat their own guts and ask for seconds." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russellmz Posted December 13, 2000 Share Posted December 13, 2000 mark iv's. not the best but they look the best on my somp compared to all the other tanks. maybe the priest after that(i love the square box look) all my other tanks are pretty "new" looking(except stugs and "weathered" modded tanks) ------------------ russellmz, Self-Proclaimed Keeper for Life of the Sacred Unofficial FAQ. "They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush "They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorBeef Posted December 13, 2000 Share Posted December 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snake Eyes: The Panther was the best all-round tank of WWII, IMHO. However, I prefer the JSIIm. Reasonable speed, good armor and a whopping 122mm main gun. Even a near miss could take out an enemy AFV. Infantry positions and bunkers can easily be smashed with such a large caliber weapon. It carried only 28 rounds (10 AP, 18 HE basic load) and had a slow rate of fire due to its two part ammo. However, I think it will be a real killer in CM2. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Was that 122 an artillery gun (like the sherman 75) or an AT gun mounted on a tank? I think I recall reading that a 88/71 could outpenetrate it by a large margin, but I'm not sure. I remember it was hindered by a bad ballistic cap due to the 2 piece shell, and that it wasn't the greatest of tank killers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Fredriksson Posted December 13, 2000 Share Posted December 13, 2000 I would go for Churchill Crocodiles in all slots. Why? It's cool, even though quite ugly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MantaRay Posted December 13, 2000 Share Posted December 13, 2000 I choose just a regular M4 Sherman. Why you ask? Well since we only get 5 tanks, and you figure the war is going to last another year or so. And since the Sherman had over 50,000 produced between 1943 and 45, or about 17,000 a year. Well you take it because while the enemy has 5 KT's or JT's, your 5 tanks will have thousands of "Baby Tanks". Now 17,000 Shermans against an Abrams would be a fair fight, but against your lowly German or Russian tanks, I would win. And all you grogs didnt know Shermans got pregnant...shame on you. And Peng fathered them all! Ray ------------------ When asked, "How many moves do you see ahead?", CAPABLANCA replied: "One move - the best one." New CM Site. In process of switching. Brought to you by Hardcore Gamers Daily The Red Army of the Rugged Defense Group Ladder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wittmann Posted December 13, 2000 Share Posted December 13, 2000 My panthers have been on the receiving end of Jeff's light guns :-( and come off badly , so I support the opinion that they aren't ideal for infantry support. In a battle with Blackhorse, my King tigers are a total pain in his ass. They've bounced a few shells without loss (yet)and returned the favour with gift wrapped 88mm. Give me King tigers anyday. [This message has been edited by Wittmann (edited 12-13-2000).] [This message has been edited by Wittmann (edited 12-13-2000).] [This message has been edited by Wittmann (edited 12-13-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceebee Posted December 13, 2000 Share Posted December 13, 2000 Both of my panthers have been taken out by a Cromwell and a Challenger in a recent TCP/IP game, One of them was hull down the other was beaten by superior play! I don't think I'll be picking panthers as my tank of choice. I like the british tanks but man they are ugly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AbnAirCav Posted December 13, 2000 Share Posted December 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maximus: I have to agree with the Commissar, the T-34/85 was probably the best Russian tank in the war. It was manufactured in high numbers wasn't it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The HPS Simulations Encyclopedia of Land Combat, Vol. 1 has "The T34/85 was first used in 1943, and altogether about 29,500 were built." For my choice:<ul>[*]"Emotionally" for maximum enjoyment: Tiger I[*]Practicality for maximum effectiveness: Panther Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Eyes Posted December 13, 2000 Share Posted December 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SenorBeef: Was that 122 an artillery gun (like the sherman 75) or an AT gun mounted on a tank? I think I recall reading that a 88/71 could outpenetrate it by a large margin, but I'm not sure. I remember it was hindered by a bad ballistic cap due to the 2 piece shell, and that it wasn't the greatest of tank killers...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> IIRC, the Russian 122/L48 D-25T was a converted artillery gun based on the A-19 design. The breech was modified, which allowed a higher rate of fire. The 122 could penetrate 143mm of armor at 1000m, 0 angle. The 88/L71 was arguably the best 'tank killer' of WWII. It could penetrate 188mm of armor at 1000m, 0 angle. However, and this should not be overlooked, the HE round of the 122 was significantly larger than the 88. The 122 weighed 25kg compared to the 88's 10kg. Also, when comparing AFV's it's often a mistaken belief that all heavy tanks fall under the same grouping. Actually JSII, Panther, Tiger I, and Pershing are comparable. King Tiger should be classified as a super heavy. ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackhorse Posted December 13, 2000 Share Posted December 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wittmann: In a battle with Blackhorse, my King tigers are a total pain in his ass. They've bounced a few shells without loss (yet)and returned the favour with gift wrapped 88mm. Give me King tigers anyday.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Aye, tis true, those KTs are a real conundrum to deal with. You are certainly putting my forces to task Personally though, I'll take an M4A3E8 any day. I'm a huge fan of the Sherman and that variant in particular. As a German, I'd have to go with a JPZIV w/ skirts. Its low silhouette, sloped frontal armor, and lethal main gun make it a very dangerous vehicle to face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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