Info Sharing Effects on Spotting

[JoMac]

How does Info Sharing Effect Spotting-Gun Accuracy ?

Would it take longer to spot a unit if both sides suddenly appeared on Turn 1 ( no info sharing so Game Mechanics treat it as normal spotting ). This versus it being alittle faster/easier to spot if a side ( or both sides ) has an idea where the enemy is when they do come into LOS ( game has progressed for sevaral turns and many enemy icons with different levels of transparency ). Is it the local HQ's that determine this Info Sharing and how fast it gets passed down, or is it eventually passed down by the overall Commander ( you ). 

Joe

[domfluff]

Okay, this is fairly complicated, and has a fair few unknowns, but:

Having a contact marker for a target *seems* to improve the chances of spotting the target. It certainly seems that way in testing. I've had quite a few slow moving, buttoned tanks with contact markers get the first shot on unbuttoned stationary tanks since knowing and applying the following.

Information can be transferred vertically and horizontally. 


Vertical information is transferred through active C2 links (you can visualise these with Ctrl-Z), and therefore can be voice comms, radio, whatever.

Squad 3 of Platoon 2 will talk to Platoon 2's HQ, which can talk to the other squads in the platoon, and give them the same contact markers (usually within 10 seconds).

Platoon 2's HQ can then (with an active C2 link) talk up the chain to the Company's HQ, which in turn can transfer this down to the other platoon HQ's, and them to their squads.

So, to transfer contacts between company HQ's, you must have a Battalion HQ above company HQ's to communicate between them.

This means that a Tank Battalion (or elements thereof) operating with an Infantry Battalion has no easy way of sharing information.


This is where horizontal sharing comes in. *Any* units that are inside voice comms range (4 squares) can share contact information, regardless of their TOE structure.


So.... since valid and current contact markers seem to improve your guys' spotting performance across the board, maintaining C2 links for them is important. If a tank platoon needs to go up against a known AT gun, they really want to have a contact marker first.

This can mean having a recon section's HQ with a radio by the tanks, to transfer information to them when their radio-equipped scouts find the AT gun, but it can also mean that forces that lack radios, like German recon forces in Kubelwagens, and especially the Italians in CMFI, need to rely on runners (HQ units and XO units) to go between squads and keep their information up. Realising this made the Italian force structure make infinitely more sense to me, although it's still hilariously bad.


Now, one of the fundamental weaknesses (and strengths) of Combat Mission is that you, the player, play every role. You are every squad leader and every Battalion commander. This means that you have more information than any of your troops do. That means that the remnants of a tank crew can spot something, and despite having no radio, and no chance of getting back to your lines, you (as the omniscient player) can still put area fire down on the forces they can see. It's a compromise, and I can understand why it's done that way.

[Bud Backer]

A stellar demonstration of these concepts here:

 

C2 & Info Sharing

[Bulletpoint]

 If a tank platoon needs to go up against a known AT gun, they really want to have a contact marker first.
 

But probably what actually happens in the game is that the player just rolls up his tank and starts area fire on the location of the at-gun, not waiting for the tank to spot the gun itself.

[domfluff]

Sure (and this is the weakness of the omniscient perspective), but targeted fire is still a better idea than area fire, and since a contact marker seems to improve the chances of gaining a full spot (this part is really difficult to test accurately, but it certainly seems to have this effect), this should still improve your tank's chances of shaving a few vital seconds off the time to get a full spot, and start targeting the AT gun effectively, rather than the approximate area it is in... against an AT gun this could mean one fewer round fired back at you, which could mean one fewer tank destroyed. It's small, incremental advantages, but they do add up.

Naturally, if C2 was strongly enforced, then the non-contact marker area fire would presumably be modelled as much less accurate (since you're modelling "that hedge", rather than "two thirds of the way along that hedge", in simple terms), so it would be even more important... but I think it's still important with the system that we have, since I think that any advantage you can give to the TacAI is worth working for.

[weapon2010]

Okay, this is fairly complicated, and has a fair few unknowns, but:

Having a contact marker for a target *seems* to improve the chances of spotting the target. It certainly seems that way in testing. I've had quite a few slow moving, buttoned tanks with contact markers get the first shot on unbuttoned stationary tanks since knowing and applying the following.

Information can be transferred vertically and horizontally. 


Vertical information is transferred through active C2 links (you can visualise these with Ctrl-Z), and therefore can be voice comms, radio, whatever.

Squad 3 of Platoon 2 will talk to Platoon 2's HQ, which can talk to the other squads in the platoon, and give them the same contact markers (usually within 10 seconds).

Platoon 2's HQ can then (with an active C2 link) talk up the chain to the Company's HQ, which in turn can transfer this down to the other platoon HQ's, and them to their squads.

So, to transfer contacts between company HQ's, you must have a Battalion HQ above company HQ's to communicate between them.

This means that a Tank Battalion (or elements thereof) operating with an Infantry Battalion has no easy way of sharing information.


This is where horizontal sharing comes in. *Any* units that are inside voice comms range (4 squares) can share contact information, regardless of their TOE structure.


So.... since valid and current contact markers seem to improve your guys' spotting performance across the board, maintaining C2 links for them is important. If a tank platoon needs to go up against a known AT gun, they really want to have a contact marker first.

This can mean having a recon section's HQ with a radio by the tanks, to transfer information to them when their radio-equipped scouts find the AT gun, but it can also mean that forces that lack radios, like German recon forces in Kubelwagens, and especially the Italians in CMFI, need to rely on runners (HQ units and XO units) to go between squads and keep their information up. Realising this made the Italian force structure make infinitely more sense to me, although it's still hilariously bad.


Now, one of the fundamental weaknesses (and strengths) of Combat Mission is that you, the player, play every role. You are every squad leader and every Battalion commander. This means that you have more information than any of your troops do. That means that the remnants of a tank crew can spot something, and despite having no radio, and no chance of getting back to your lines, you (as the omniscient player) can still put area fire down on the forces they can see. It's a compromise, and I can understand why it's done that way.

very nicely explained, its a challenge to convey the c2 explanation into words.

[JoMac]

Thanks for the Info, domfluff and Bud...That's about what I kinda figured was going on with the Info Sharing & Spotting.