contact lost!

[CAS]

I finally own "fortress italy+GL+3"   (+SF, Norm, BS)

After a day off struggling the whole day with the installation, the game support helped me to get the game running (server issue).

I have enjoyed  playing the game for the last weeks and i am sure there it will take me a long time to play all the missions.

One of the reasons why i decided to buy the game were the different Italian order of battle and their sparse use of radio equipment.

Coming from BS where every unit has a radio, i hoped for a new different challenge.

 

I was surprised to see that in some instances soldiers without radio equipment could call in indirect fire  (on map) without being i contact to other troops.

I understand from other forum discussions that this is a trade off simulating other communication means like cable and flares.

 

The reason why i post is that i wish we could have a more restrictive communication in iron mode. All CM games would profit from that.

 

- it should only be possible to give orders (move/fire) to troops that are in communication with other troops (not only their own chain of command)

- If troops are out of communication and sight they are replaced by a fading unit icons until they are in communication or visible again.

- The unit will still follow the orders made before communication was lost

- For better unit control the hunt command should continue after contact with the enemy is lost (fx. 30sec. delay)

- If cable communication is simulated there should be icons for it (after a delay to establish the link)

- the chain of command could be better simulated by giving commands additional delay if the unit establishing the HQ link is not part of their own formation.

- to balance the loss of control units could be allowed to fire on fresh communicated contact markers from units they have direct communication. (fx. a mortar team or tank firing

  at a fresh enemy icon that popped up after a soldier close to them got eyes on the target. should be low rate of fire)

- Tanks that are turned in and have no radio can establish contact with  ground troops in the same action square.

- If troops are out of contact a long time (10-15min?!) they should move to one of the last known friendly contact markers to reestablish contact. 

 

This advanced communication would give some nice game play challenges and open op for some nice search and rescue scenarios.

I just played the battle where you have to find the crew of an ambushed half-track in an Italian city. With this game mechanic in place it would have been possible to find the crew, establish contact and get them to a exit point or to buddy aid the casualties.

All in all battles would be more dynamic with units loosing contact because their radioman is down and then them showing up again after the radioman is buddy-aided.

 

Hope this is possible, would make a grate game even better.

Maybe Steve has the time to comment?

Sorry for my english

Regards CAS

[A Canadian Cat]

 

 

The reason why i post is that i wish we could have a more restrictive communication in iron mode. All CM games would profit from that.

- it should only be possible to give orders (move/fire) to troops that are in communication with other troops (not only their own chain of command)

- If troops are out of communication and sight they are replaced by a fading unit icons until they are in communication or visible again.

- The unit will still follow the orders made before communication was lost

This has been brought up before and the problem with it has not changed either.  Would it be reasonable behaviour for a squad that looses sight of its Lt to suddenly just stop thinking on its own?  Wouldn't the leader be just as likely to drop further orders and move back towards the Lt's location? If the location where the completion of their orders placed them became dangerous wouldn't the squad leader lead his men to some nearby cover with out consulting the Lt.?

The bottom line issue is the game offers us the job of being the unit commanders from the Battalion commander all the way down to fire team leaders.  The Tac AI is pretty cool but it is not up to the job of leading squads - even the AI has a scripting system to handle that.

- For better unit control the hunt command should continue after contact with the enemy is lost (fx. 30sec. delay)

Also asked for before.  But if they did that we would hear complaints about units "walking into known ambush just because the shooter ducked for a while".  I personally like the way hunt works now and would not like it to change.

- If cable communication is simulated there should be icons for it (after a delay to establish the link)

Requests for more explicit cable comms have been made before.  Yeah it wold be cool.  I don't remember BFC ever commenting on that.  They do have a big to do list though.

- the chain of command could be better simulated by giving commands additional delay if the unit establishing the HQ link is not part of their own formation.

Yuck, command delay.  See above discussion about squad leaders not being able to make reasonable quick decisions for their men under that type of command regime.

- to balance the loss of control units could be allowed to fire on fresh communicated contact markers from units they have direct communication. (fx. a mortar team or tank firing

  at a fresh enemy icon that popped up after a soldier close to them got eyes on the target. should be low rate of fire)

Not sure what you mean there.

- Tanks that are turned in and have no radio can establish contact with  ground troops in the same action square.

Tank commanders can communicate with nearby infantry already.

- If troops are out of contact a long time (10-15min?!) they should move to one of the last known friendly contact markers to reestablish contact. 

Again totally not work able.  Why 10min why not 5min why not 20min it just makes not sense at all.

You might be interested in this thread: http://community.battlefront.com/topic/119732-command-friction-applying-c3-effects-in-combat-mission-playtest/ I think a lot of what Bil suggests in there covers your ideas except that you as the player have to exercise the self control.

[Bootie]

Excellent response ianL

Edited September 17, 2015 by ShaneGreer

[CAS]

Yes, thanks for the  detailed response, valid points and some nice links you posted!

Took me some time to read through it...

- to balance the loss of control units could be allowed to fire on fresh communicated contact markers from units they have direct communication. (fx. a mortar team or tank firing at a fresh enemy icon that popped up after a soldier close to them got eyes on the target. should be low rate of fire)

i mean units should autonomously be able to fire at new contact icons!

Sometimes some of my soldiers can see an enemy in a building, the tank right next to them can not see the enemy but get´s a new contact icon.

I usually manually order the tank to  (area) fire at the building.

Now i would like the tank to area fire on that new contact icon autonomously.

 

Are tanks in contact to nearby infantry when turned in?  (i think they should when in the same square)

Did Bil ever play a match with these rules? (the link you posted)

The taking cover mechanics could be better but they work now and all in all it would encourage a game play where you try to stay in contact.

If you lose contact it is likely that things go from bad to worse (like in RL) 

  3 hours ago, CAS said:

- If troops are out of contact a long time (10-15min?!) they should move to one of the last known friendly contact markers to reestablish contact. 

Again totally not work able.  Why 10min why not 5min why not 20min it just makes not sense at all.

Does it make more sense to stay in place if you have no active orders?

Some forces have a routine to re establish contact at the last known friendly location.

 

Overall i understand your concerns, but i think it would be an interesting game mechanic without being too complicated.

[A Canadian Cat]

 

i mean units should autonomously be able to fire at new contact icons!

Sometimes some of my soldiers can see an enemy in a building, the tank right next to them can not see the enemy but get´s a new contact icon.

I usually manually order the tank to  (area) fire at the building.

Now i would like the tank to area fire on that new contact icon autonomously.

Ah, gotcha.  Oh I would love that.  It has been suggested but you know what it has not been brought up very often.  I think this would be one of the best low hanging fruit changes that could be made. It probably should have some restrictions because there can be a lot of ? contacts floating around which could lead to a lot of ammo usage and firing all over the place.

One situation where it could be made to work and have a desired effect is when a squad comes under fire.  The friendly units near by (who are probably there on over-watch) will likely get new ? contacts from all the enemy shooting.  That would be a perfect opportunity for the Tac AI to say I'm not going to wait for full recognition my buddies are in trouble I'm just going to fire where it sounds like the enemy shooting from. 

Are tanks in contact to nearby infantry when turned in?  (i think they should when in the same square)

Ah, you mean can they talk to infantry when they are buttoned up?  I know they can when they are unbuttoned. Not all tanks had a way for the tank commander to talk to the outside crunchies when the hatches were closed.  I am not sure at what level this is modelled.

Did Bil ever play a match with these rules? (the link you posted)

I could not find that he did.  Hopefully soon.

The taking cover mechanics could be better but they work now and all in all it would encourage a game play where you try to stay in contact.

If you lose contact it is likely that things go from bad to worse (like in RL) 

Does it make more sense to stay in place if you have no active orders?

No, likely not.  My point is we players are needed to make the decisions that the squad NCO would make. That is how the game is currently designed.  I do not think the Tac AI is up to the job.  Even a squad that is out of contact with its Lt can decide basic things based on the last orders they got.  They can defend themselves if the come under fire, they can break contact if they are loosing the fire fight, they can finish the enemy team if they win the fire fight.  They can decide the route they should take to withdraw, if something really scary shows up they can get out of doge before taking casualties / fire even.  The Tac AI can only defend itself and possibly withdraw a short distance and heaven help the Tac AI if a tank shows up.

[sburke]

the problem with firing at a contact icon is that the icon may be a sound contact that is nowhere near actual position.  If you fire, you give away your position and likely hit nothing but dead ground.  At night this could very possibly mean having a dead tank for nothing. 

For example - Night mission - I get a sound contact, I fire.  I hit dead ground. Meanwhile by firing I have given away my exact position and the enemy tank now hits me. What did I gain by that capability..... bad option.  You don't want to fire a tank round unless you have a definite target OR you have a very good reason like you know whatever you are firing at isn't gonna hit back.

This is part of the nature of recon by fire as well.  The AI is already a sucker for that.  You take one unit, open fire and have the rest of your units waiting to pound whatever is stupid enough to fall for it.

Imagine now you get one really fast recon vehicle.  You run it by an area you expect the enemy to be while having your heavier units just waiting to get an actual spot.  You race your light unit parallel to the enemy.  They get a bunch of sound contacts and open fire. - gamey.

 

[CAS]

When i am talking about firing at icons i only mean the icons that appear because other units have eyes on the target. If a unit has LOS/LOF on the icon it should fire.

I absolutely do not want them to fire at all the contact markers including the fadet  ones.

[womble]

That would involve giving the TacAI rather more memory than it currently has. The opposition AI doesn't use area fire at all, and neither will your troops if you don't tell them to. It's a big jump to go to having them shoot at "tentative contact" markers in a pseudo-intelligent manner.