WW2 vehicles vs todays small arms?

[wamphyri]

I've been wondering about this for some time since I started playing CMBN and CMBS.  The question is quite simple really, would small arms from todays armies have an easier time penetrating something that took a HMG or more to penetrate?

[agusto]

That depends on the specific vehicle. For example the German Panzer I could even be penetrated by the HDEP ammunation of the US M203 grenade launcher, but the Tiger would be as invulnerable to the M203s HDEP rounds as any modern MBT. If we are looking at the modern AT-rocket launchers though, like the US AT4 or the diverse RPG varaints currently fielded by the Russians, things look different. For example even the compareably small AT4, which can penetrate up to 400mm of steel, would be able to destroy any WW2 tank, including the German super heavy cats like the Jagdtiger.

[Abdolmartin]

Concerning actual personal wepons (not grenades or rockets), it will certainly depend on the calibre of the weapon and the ammunition used.

Intermediate rifle cartridges (5.56 NATO and 5.45 Russian) will probably be unable to penetrate significantly. However, I expect full-power rifle cartridges such as the 7.62×54R (which actually did exist in WW2) to be able to penetrate better (they can even penetrate the back of certain BTRs). Modern ammo of HMGs and large calibre rifles also allows them to perform better at penetrating armour. But small arms are naturally limited at best to penetrating the armour of armoured cars and less. For anything more, you need at least an anti-materiel rifle.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Abdolmartin

[agusto]

For anything more, you need at least an anti-materiel rifle.

 

The Denel NTW-20 anti-material rifle with 20x110mm DU rounds would certainly be a threat to all WW2 APC and to most of the lighter early war tanks.

 

http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/imgs/denel-ntw20.jpg

 

But a.50 cal anti-material rifle would probably not be more effective than a WW2 .50 cal HMG - it' the same round, after all.

 

But regarding anti-material rifles, i have to think of the SSK .950 JDJ:

 

http://www.isciencetimes.com/articles/5786/20130802/largest-caliber-rifle-ssk-950-jdj-rounds.htm

 

Edited July 14, 2015 by agusto

[Abdolmartin]

The Denel NTW-20 anti-material rifle with 20x110mm DU rounds would certainly be a threat to all WW2 APC and to most of the lighter early war tanks.

 

http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/imgs/denel-ntw20.jpg

 

But a.50 cal anti-material rifle would probably not be more effective than a WW2 .50 cal HMG - it' the same round, after all.

 

But regarding anti-material rifles, i have to think of the SSK .950 JDJ:

 

http://www.isciencetimes.com/articles/5786/20130802/largest-caliber-rifle-ssk-950-jdj-rounds.htm

 

 

Well, even the 0.50 cal can be dangerous with new ammo, e.g. Mk. 211. I mean, just by comparing the penetration of the standard 0.50 AP-I to the Mk. 211, it appears that the latter penetrates much better.

That 0.950 rifle sounds pretty much insane though. It's almost a personal cannon.

[Melchior]

I've been wondering about this for some time since I started playing CMBN and CMBS.  The question is quite simple really, would small arms from todays armies have an easier time penetrating something that took a HMG or more to penetrate?

I'm pretty sure modern low caliber rounds are a little better than they were in 1940 thanks to better forming techniques and advances in metallurgy. Things like ballistic caps for example aren't really necessary anymore. Then again few KE penetrators these days are just big slugs. Lightly armored vehicles in World War 2 were barely what we consider "armor" today though. Vehicles like the Hanomag and M3 were bulletproof only in the barest sense.

Modern 5.56 rounds have a high muzzle velocity and flat trajectory. At long range they don't have very good post-impact performance, but at shorter ranges the sheer muzzle energy enables them to penetrate light cover. I think at ranges beyond about 100m or so I'd hesitate to use an M4 against say, an Sdkfz 232 even with AP rounds. Course' the US Army has such a love affair with the M2HB just rolling up the nearest Humvee would fix fritz pretty good.

[John Kettler]

wamphyri,

 

There are .50 caliber antimateriel rounds used in sniper rifles whose performance exceeds that of a German Pak 38 (Raufoss MK 211--50 mm at 1500 meters, per my #13 cited sources), but I think your question had more to do with ARs vs WW II armor. There, on balance I'd say ground has been lost, since most AR cartridges are intermediate power cartridges, as opposed to the standard WW II full power rifle cartridges. I'm in no position to say what effect the hardened steel cores in US and NATO 5.56 ammo have on the overall answer, though. Effectively, every shot of standard 5.56 is AP, as opposed to ball.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler