sburke Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 I smell a locked thread coming, we can either be more civil, go back to the original subject or find this thread closed proving ourselves incapable of a civil conversation. Our choice 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaburke61 Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 (edited) I read your lengthy "flip side to the coin" dissertations, what I never saw was you actually address certain points I questioned. But you keep telling yourself how "intellectual" you are and how "ignorant" people who disagree are. But we are in complete agreement that this is a waste of time. Edited March 8, 2015 by kaburke61 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUCASWILLEN05 Posted March 8, 2015 Author Share Posted March 8, 2015 Russia would be better letting Ukraine go although that might come at the cost of some of the Russian speaking regions. Dual nationality for Russians and Ukranians within the current borders might al;so be part of a negotiated solution. The rest of Ukraine has quite a lot to offer the EU - prime agricultual land and an educated population. If all the old industry has gone (it would likelyy go anyway) Ukraine has the oppportnity t build a modern economy. Russia of course will lose out on that and on any chance of becoming a part of the European Community at any time in thje forseeable future. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUCASWILLEN05 Posted March 8, 2015 Author Share Posted March 8, 2015 What is really tiresome from the Putin-bots, is the notion that this is somehow a US-caused problem. Gee...whose tanks are in Ukraine right now? Funny, I don't see any M1A2s (or American troops), deployed currently, I certainly see a few Russian units..... And, how was Ukraine wanting to pursue agreements with EUROPE, America's fault. Typical "It's all America's fault" parroting from the propaganda-brainwashed Putin-bots. After all, NOTHING Russia ever does is it's fault, it's ALWAYS somebody else fault..the poor Russians, they just want peace so badly! I think e are all capable of recognising as Putin-bot when we see one. If it looks like a Putin bot and acts like a Putin b then it probab;ly is a Putin bot! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchior Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 (edited) If not us, who? Putin is the one aggressively de-stabilizing Europe in a country with nuclear weapons. Isolationism is never a good strategy. Wasn't it you who brought up the west's behavior regarding Hitler, is somehow that strategy now okay when applied to Putin? Not us. That's who. For starters, the assumption that the west has the right or responsibility to police the world and its affairs is as old as the 16th century. It has a poor track record if working out for anyone except westerners. On top of that, it's predicated on the assumption that affected peoples are unable to determine their own futures and that they need rich people to do it for them! Considering the huge protests that erupted in Russia last week over the death of one of Putin's political enemies (which he undoubtedly had a hand in) I think Putin may be starting to face more resistance from his own people than the west. So I could be wrong about Russians not viewing Putin with skepticism. Ultimately Russians have far, far more right to reign Putin in on this affair than we do. No, the strategy is not applicable to Putin. It's apples to oranges. You want to talk about about a historic parallel that makes no sense, it's definitely comparing Hitler to Putin. Edited March 8, 2015 by CaptHawkeye 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Sorry I don't think you can make a legitimate argument that it is up to Russian's to reign in Putin when Putin is active militarily in Ukraine. That ship has sailed. Like it or not the west is part of the international community and has both a right and a responsibility to act. You can self flagellate on your own time. I will not get mired in some self loathing argument that says because the west makes mistakes too, we can not therefore have anything worthwhile to contribute. Show me the nation you feel has hands clean enough and the capability to act and maybe we can talk. I doubt though you have anyone in mind. And yes Hitler is an appropriate historical figure. He was an aggressive dictator fanning the flames of Germany's sense of being wronged and acting to "protect Germans wherever they may be". Tell me why you think there is no historical parallel. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUCASWILLEN05 Posted March 8, 2015 Author Share Posted March 8, 2015 (edited) Sorry I don't think you can make a legitimate argument that it is up to Russian's to reign in Putin when Putin is active militarily in Ukraine. That ship has sailed. Like it or not the west is part of the international community and has both a right and a responsibility to act. You can self flagellate on your own time. I will not get mired in some self loathing argument that says because the west makes mistakes too, we can not therefore have anything worthwhile to contribute. Show me the nation you feel has hands clean enough and the capability to act and maybe we can talk. I doubt though you have anyone in mind. And yes Hitler is an appropriate historical figure. He was an aggressive dictator fanning the flames of Germany's sense of being wronged and acting to "protect Germans wherever they may be". Tell me why you think there is no historical parallel. Yes, I see Hitler as a possible parallel but also similarities with Bismarck Edited March 8, 2015 by LUCASWILLEN05 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchior Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Sorry I don't think you can make a legitimate argument that it is up to Russian's to reign in Putin when Putin is active militarily in Ukraine. That ship has sailed. Like it or not the west is part of the international community and has both a right and a responsibility to act. You can self flagellate on your own time. I will not get mired in some self loathing argument that says because the west makes mistakes too, we can not therefore have anything worthwhile to contribute. Show me the nation you feel has hands clean enough and the capability to act and maybe we can talk. I doubt though you have anyone in mind. Look, your own attachment to the preconceptions of western culture as automatically right and automatically superior are simply not shared by most of the people currently living on this planet. The correct answer is not to go "well that's just how it is" because that's willingly ignoring a problem you now tacitly admit you have knowledge of. But I mean how is it even possible to talk about this when you don't frame it as a discussion but an "argument" as if we're in a court of law. I've been doing this forum shlocking for too many years to avoid realizing how divorced from reality it all is. I'm sorry you don't see it. And yes Hitler is an appropriate historical figure. He was an aggressive dictator fanning the flames of Germany's sense of being wronged and acting to "protect Germans wherever they may be". Tell me why you think there is no historical parallel. Tell me how their is one. No really burden of proof is on you. You're going to need to connect more dots here than just "tyrant who played on people's fears". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 (edited) You are welcome to be the apologist for inaction and espousing the "poor misunderstood Russia" line. I am gonna stick with the UN charter as the basis of international relations and obligations. Russia doesn't get a pass for feeling like it's neighbors have to make all their decisions based on what is acceptable to a wannabe empire. Western culture LOL gimme a break. Next up -"You don't understand autocracy is just the way the rest of the world finds to be a better form of government." That is so patronizing. We used to call it white guilt. No idea what the hip turn of phrase is now. As to the comparison to Hitler, I gave several examples of the similarity and you quoted them. That you choose to ignore them is your business, but don't pretend I did not provide them. Edited March 9, 2015 by sburke 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchior Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 You are welcome to be the apologist for inaction and espousing the "poor misunderstood Russia" line. I am gonna stick with the UN charter as the basis of international relations and obligations. Russia doesn't get a pass for feeling like it's neighbors have to make all their decisions based on what is acceptable to a wannabe empire. Western culture LOL gimme a break. Next up -"You don't understand autocracy is just the way the rest of the world finds to be a better form of government." That is so patronizing. We used to call it white guilt. No idea what the hip turn of phrase is now. Which is, ya know, not what I said. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUCASWILLEN05 Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share Posted March 9, 2015 (edited) It seems Putin has admitted to this. If this is in any way accurate how are we supposed to trust his word on anything else? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l70umjfaBPI Edited March 9, 2015 by LUCASWILLEN05 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Lol you still asking that question? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUCASWILLEN05 Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share Posted March 9, 2015 Lol you still asking that question? It was rhetorical 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Well, catching up on this thread. Guys, this is descending into political bickering over which "side" smells prettier. Let's not go there, OK? Keep the conversation directly relevant to Combat Mission, or I'll have to lock the thread. Thanks. Chris 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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