PBS Documentary on the Ukraine

[Childress]

The eastern rump of Ukraine, composed heavily of ethnic Russians, longs to re-integrate with the mother country. And not just for nationalist reasons. Economic interests play an important role. Ukraine has been in arrears with Russia's natural gas deliveries.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Childress

[Alexey K]

The eastern rump of Ukraine, composed heavily of ethnic Russians, longs to re-integrate with the mother country. And not just for nationalist reasons. Economic interests play an important role. Ukraine has been in arrears with Russia's natural gas deliveries.

It's not only gas. Eastern Ukraine has majority of industry and good share of it's products was exported to Russia. Space rockets (Zenit) and some space tech, helicopter engines, railroad locomotives, etc. These economic ties were formed during Soviet period and helped them to keep afloat after fall up USSR. Now these ties are cut off for political reasons and no new markets to replace them have emerged.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Alexey K

[A Canadian Cat]

Sure, that can't be denied, the impetus I'm talking about however came from the Ukrajine-European Union Association Agreement which, as I understand it, was signed without a referendum. And, as I heard, was unnecessary for Ukraine's economy and trade, and which sole point was to put more pressure on Russia.

I of course lack any solid ground for these allegations, that's only what I heard.

That agreement was an excuse to kick up a fuss not a true impetus. Economics is not a zero sum game. So a stronger Ukraine economy does not hurt Russia it would be good for Russia because it would make them a better trading partner. This argument over the economic agreement some how being a threat is just an excuse to sew additional distrust and fear.

Someone used the example of trying to pull Canada towards Russia and how would the US react. LOL some US politicians already think we are close to Russia . But I know the answer, in general it would not bother them one bit. No one in the US kicked up a fuss over our recent free trade deal with the EU. Nor did they care about the similar one recently with China. The US knows that trade is good and closer economic ties are not a threat. Heck Canadian companys have been doing business with Cuba for years with only a minimum of complaints from the US.

Now if Russia started missing with our political parties or our elections or moving troops across the borders that would be a different thing all together. Because that would matter.

I can sure you no one in the EU wants to take over Ukraine or some how threaten Russia it is a silly manufactured thought that serves only a handful of selfish people.

Edited February 17, 2015 by IanL

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

 

 

Ukrainians have a legit grievance against Russia as a result of the forced collectivization and subsequent famine that followed. But these events occurred in the 1930s. Russia has since transitioned from a totalitarian to an authoritarian nation.It's economy has taken off, many of its citizens have entered the middle class.

 

And Russians hade a legit grievance against the west in 1940 as a result of German actions. 

 

And yet that experience continues to define Russian policy making.  History has a way of lingering, especially traumatic history.   

 

 

 

Western medias have framed the conflict as the Big Bully picking on the scrappy little guy. I remain unsympathetic with this view.

Ukraine isn't a great country by any stretch of the imagination, but if the US carved off part of Mexico because it was full of US retirees (they long to be Americans again, and Mexico is a failed state!) the UK returned various commonwealth countries to colony status (they're the queens subjects and they long to return to her welcoming arms and are suffering under the present government!) the lid flipping would be just as severe.  Objection to Russian actions shouldn't be seen as tacit approval of the Ukraine, but objection to sneakily taking parts of other countries.  If the Eastern Ukraine really wanted to return to Russia there were other ways to do it that didn't involve "separatists," Russian special forces on leave, and T-72s and BUKs sprouting up from the soil.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

And Russians hade a legit grievance against the west in 1940 as a result of German actions. 

 

And yet that experience continues to define Russian policy making.  History has a way of lingering, especially traumatic history.   

 

Ukraine isn't a great country by any stretch of the imagination, but if the US carved off part of Mexico because it was full of US retirees (they long to be Americans again, and Mexico is a failed state!) the UK returned various commonwealth countries to colony status (they're the queens subjects and they long to return to her welcoming arms and are suffering under the present government!) the lid flipping would be just as severe.  Objection to Russian actions shouldn't be seen as tacit approval of the Ukraine, but objection to sneakily taking parts of other countries.  If the Eastern Ukraine really wanted to return to Russia there were other ways to do it that didn't involve "separatists," Russian special forces on leave, and T-72s and BUKs sprouting up from the soil.

 

Exactly. It could be done with political negotiation. Given the natural resources andindustry located there Russia would have to offer Ukains something big in return. Such as agreeing to Ukraniam membership of the EU and NATO. Something like this would look like a Win-Win for both sidesthough there would be problems.

[Alexey K]

And Russians hade a legit grievance against the west in 1940 as a result of German actions. 

 

And yet that experience continues to define Russian policy making.  History has a way of lingering, especially traumatic history.   

 

Ukraine isn't a great country by any stretch of the imagination, but if the US carved off part of Mexico because it was full of US retirees (they long to be Americans again, and Mexico is a failed state!) the UK returned various commonwealth countries to colony status (they're the queens subjects and they long to return to her welcoming arms and are suffering under the present government!) the lid flipping would be just as severe.  Objection to Russian actions shouldn't be seen as tacit approval of the Ukraine, but objection to sneakily taking parts of other countries.  If the Eastern Ukraine really wanted to return to Russia there were other ways to do it that didn't involve "separatists," Russian special forces on leave, and T-72s and BUKs sprouting up from the soil.

 

I doubt that Putin or anybody in power in Russia really want to chop off Eastern Ukraine and annex it. 

I think that low-intensity or frozen conflict inside Ukraine if more preferrable option.

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

 

 

I think that low-intensity or frozen conflict inside Ukraine if more preferrable option.

 

Which is equally offensive to the rest of the world at large.  Same effect different goal.  Objection to Russian intervention is the objection to Russian intervention, not exactly supporting the Ukraine (although because of the way Russia has followed through it's turned into effectively supporting the Ukraine).  

[Childress]

Ukraine isn't a great country by any stretch of the imagination, but if the US carved off part of Mexico because it was full of US retirees (they long to be Americans again, and Mexico is a failed state!) 

 

Mexico a failed state? That's a canard. The GDP per person is 19K, ranking only second to Chile in South/Latin America. It's been classified as a middle class nation for many years. Americans get a false impression due to the hordes of unemployed paisanos who flood over the border. These aren't typical Mexicans. 

 

Their major health issue:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2358472/How-Mexico-got-fat-obese-America.html

Edited February 17, 2015 by Childress

[Alexey K]

Which is equally offensive to the rest of the world at large.  Same effect different goal.  Objection to Russian intervention is the objection to Russian intervention, not exactly supporting the Ukraine (although because of the way Russia has followed through it's turned into effectively supporting the Ukraine).  

 

I don't think it really offensive to "rest of the world"

It is offensive mostly to US and US imposes it's will on it's European allies.

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

 

 

 

Mexico a failed state? That's a canard. The GDP per person is 19K, ranking only second to Chile in South/Latin America. It's been classified as a middle class nation for many years. Americans get a false impression due to the hordes of unemployed paisanos who flood over the border. These aren't typical Mexicans. 

 

And Ukraine isn't a classically failed state either.  My point wasn't Mexico needs to be invaded, it was that it's not the US's place to invade Mexico and encourage parts of it to became US dominated enclaves based on its troubles and the presence of US nationals in those enclaves.  The issue here isn't "Ukraine has problems but we are ignoring them because we <3 Ukraine!" it's "Ukraine has problems, and Russia should butt out of them"

 

 

 

It is offensive mostly to US and US imposes it's will on it's European allies.

Could you please identify countries and populations that support Russia's actions in the Ukraine?  They may oppose it less than the US, but about as positive as you'll get is "Russia is wrong to do this, but we don't strongly care because it's not our backyard" 

[Alexey K]

Could you please identify countries and populations that support Russia's actions in the Ukraine?  They may oppose it less than the US, but about as positive as you'll get is "Russia is wrong to do this, but we don't strongly care because it's not our backyard" 

I don't say they support it. They mostly don't care or seek to use this situation on their own behalf, like South American countries that increased their food export to Russia or China that has signed long prepared gas deal. 

[sburke]

This thread is headed for closure if folks don't change the direction it is going.