Furchtlosundtrew Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Hi there, some remarks/questions about Algeria in the SoE-scenario. At the moment I am battleing against steelwarrior. He likes the strategie to conquer Algiers, to refuse the building of Vichy and to get spain on his side. In a first match I was able to defend against his attack for some reasons. The most important fact was, that he had to decide over Vichy, when he wasn't close to Algiers yet. After he refused to allow Vichy I got per Event some French Units around algiers. Especially an HQ, and a fighting squadron. And Algiers became capital and therefore a higher supply Level (eight or ten, not quite shure). So i had enough time to organise a defence and to bring some extra air power here... In a second match, he did bring some german Units to africa very early, he is very fast (France has not mutch to defend here) and is not far away from Algiers now. But France is not going to capitulate the next two/three turns. This means, the Vichy event will come later and that means i will get the extra units around Algiers and the better supply level (which I need both to defend here) later or let's say to late. I am in danger to lose Algiers, before the Vichy Event... I am not shure, if this makes sense. Maybe it would be better to build the French extra units in that moment, when France loses Tunis to the axis. The French units are much weaker than their german counterparts, so Germany maybe able to get Algiers nevertheless, but the Entente Player would have a Chance to hold. I think without some changes like this you have no chance to counter the Algiers strategy, when you are not on the alert to it. Another Option would be, to implement scorched earth here regarding to newly conquered supply resources. This would slow down an axis advance too... another question around this: If the axisplayer accepts the Vichy Event, the british get some airplanes from the US, one strategic bomber and one ground attack aircraft. If the geman player denies vichy, these aircrafts are delivered to Algiers and handed over to the French (as i said above). But the French get a strategic bomber and a fighter (instead of ground attack aircraft). Wouldn't it be better to deliver the same Kind of aircrafts in both cases...? What do you think abaout it? Furchtlosundtrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill101 Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Thanks for this, I'll have a think about this and see if we can make things better here, and more consistent with the aircraft deliveries too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furchtlosundtrew Posted February 7, 2015 Author Share Posted February 7, 2015 Just a little addition: Steelwarrior now stands around an empty Paris and doesn't take it in the hope to get Algiers first. It may last four or five another turns, until French morale gets to 0 without falling of Paris. Clever gaming by steelwarrior, but it shows, that the algerian Units (and maybe even the better supply of Algiers) shouldn't be linked to the Vichy Event... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill101 Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I'm thinking on this, and to help me it would be good to know roughly at what date in your campaign Algeria was invaded. At that time, how close to taking Paris were the Germans? It might be hard to find a perfect solution, but an improvement may be possible. Thanks Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaMonkey Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 I don't have SoE, so I may be way off here, but where is the French Med fleet when these German units are moving to North Africa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furchtlosundtrew Posted February 9, 2015 Author Share Posted February 9, 2015 Hi Sea Monkey, it is (in my opinion) hardly possible, to hinder axis transports to northern africa. If the italian Player takes his heavy bomber to scout from sicilia, the italian (and german) transports go their way relative safe to the lybian ports... Hi Bill, I would say the western attack against France started in April and the german troops are close to Paris in late July and where able to take it (if they wanted) in mid August (aprox.). The Attack on Algeria went through Tunesia. I think this one started in early 1940, too (Italia was early in the war). It is now September 1940 and the axis is almost in Algiers and they would have it already, if i didn't make some troop transports there, but even with these troops i will lose it the next two turns probably. This should be the right dates nearly. Let me know, if you need the exact dates, then i will have a look in my save files to tell you. Kind regards Furchtlosundtrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill101 Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Hi Furchtlosundtrew, that's fine, thanks for this as it does help me with what I'm considering, and the dates you've given make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaMonkey Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I get it, the scout bombers are available for the Italians(active). Hopefully we'll have interceptors(based in Malta) that can actually cause an aborted mission for SC3, but I'm sure Bill will work out a logical solution for SoE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelwarrior77 Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) I have to counter reason a bit here - it is now end of November and Algiers is due to a huge british support still in Allied hands - so the Allies, if they realize early enough, what the Axis player is up to - can very well keep Algiers - even though I still did not conquer France and the extra units did not spawn - right now the British even have the strength to attack the Italians and keep the Germans out of Algiers - so if it should be possible at all that Algiers could ever be conquered for sure the Allies do not need more strength ;-D The main thing keeping me from taking it, are the carriers and bombers of the Brits - of course they will pay with a possible Sealion for it or will not be able to start any invasion before 43 ;-D Several times my Panzer Korps at full strength was even threatened to be destroyed, which would have ended up in a catastrophe for me.... Edited February 10, 2015 by steelwarrior77 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furchtlosundtrew Posted February 11, 2015 Author Share Posted February 11, 2015 This is right steelwarrior, but as I wrote above i knew before what you where planning and moved therefore my BEF not back to England but to Algiers. And (more important) i began moving French troops to Algiers in a huge number very early. These troops cannot stand the german tanks, but they can buy me two or three turns while they are slaughtered but blocking the german advance, Many other Players would have recognized your plans two or three turns later (because they didn't play against you before ;o) and than they would have invested fully in a defence against Germany in France and it would be to late, to organize a defence in Algiers then... On the other hand, I was not shure for some turns wether your newly push to Algiers could be a feint. If you had pushed to Paris with all you had, after feinting, you would have been able to finish France two or three turns earlier (at least!) as normal, because of my transports (four or five Units) to Algier and my disbanding of other Units to get more MPPs and the early retreat of the british troops. For some turns I was afraid you could do so. And not to forget: Even with some British troops here my Situation is desperate and despite all my Investments with the French and the British I am close to lose Algiers the next few turns... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelwarrior77 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) I thought about the feint too - but getting more MPPs was even more tempting ;-D The question is just, if Algiers should be defendable if the Allied player throws everything in its way - I am not sure - cause initative - choosing to go after a target and being able to do so - is one of the few adavantages the Axis player has early on... In AoC there is also no way to hinder the Axis player to take it, if he chosses so - but it takes away units for Barbarossa at first and as this is the deciding war - not North Africa - and in SoE it is very hard to take Malta and very hard to beat the SU - I do not believe I would have too much of an advantage by taking Algiers... At least you delayed me already quite some time - with the püossibility to end in an early defaet for me, if you woulkd destroy my Panzer Corps - which happened last game ;-D - my interceptors were blocked by oe of the nasty sand storms and bye bye tanks.... Because by loosing in my situation you would overrun North Africa and how could I do a succesfull Barbarossa if you could invade everywhere in the Meds already late 41 or early 42 - so Im am doomed to success once I chose that way ;-D Edited February 11, 2015 by steelwarrior77 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelwarrior77 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) Plus I would not have been able to go for an unhistoric early Algiers if my opponent did not go for an unhistoric early Italy (provocing Italy into an early war) - so it may look gamey - but it is from both of us...I only countered the Allied adavantage of an early Italy war entry.... By the way the early Italy should be also looked at - cause we need to move our units only one tile away from the cities to get that effect and honestly the Italians would not have been that supid to be so easily feinted into an early war....counts for SoE and AoC... Edited February 11, 2015 by steelwarrior77 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill101 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Hi A couple of thoughts spring to mind: If the Allies send a lot of forces to Algeria to prevent a total conquest of all of French territory, then the simple Axis counter could be simply to form Vichy France after taking Paris and France surrenders, as this will render the build up of forces in Algeria irrelevant. While another alternative could be to launch a SeaLion while the Allies are focused on Algeria. I've noted your comment about Italy's mobilization and will add that to my list. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelwarrior77 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) Yeah, I though about a quick Vichy France but the SU in SoE is really amonster and so I like the extra MPPs from all of France - which I have conquered by now except Paris ;-D A Sea Lion would be interesting too - but I doubt I could defend England for long....especially additional to the war with the SU and having to defend mainland Europe.... And if I still get Algiers Spain and French North Africa will also come in handy.... Edited February 12, 2015 by steelwarrior77 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelwarrior77 Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) Is there an event in SoE that the Iraque will join the Axis? And if yes, when? Edited February 15, 2015 by steelwarrior77 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill101 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Hi Here are the details from the Strategy Guide: DE 106 - UK: Impose Economic Sanctions On Iraq? Event fires: When both Germany and Italy are Axis and not surrendered, Iraq is politically aligned with the Allies but not fully mobilized, Alexandria is in Allied hands, and the Axis have units in the proximity of either El Alamein, Alexandria or Amman. Cost of accepting: 140 MPPs at 35 MPPs a turn for 4 turns. Yes: Axis supply in Baghdad is reduced temporarily to zero. The UK annexes Basra and a strength 10 UK Corps deploys there. Iraq will join the Axis, and Syria will swing slightly towards the Axis. No: Iraq will join the Axis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelwarrior77 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Thanks ;-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furchtlosundtrew Posted February 23, 2015 Author Share Posted February 23, 2015 Hi there, some Addition to this Topic. We are now in Summer '41. Algiers did fall (not quite shure) in December '40 or January '41. In the end I had no Chance to hold Algiers as I told you above (although I had additional british troops here, an army, an HQ and a corps). Spain is in the war and Germany attacked the SU, but not as strong as usual (at least that, what I have seen so far). I am curious, how it will become in the long term... Some question regarding the plains, delivered from the US. I never got them! Normally (as written above) the british player becomes one stratgic bomber an one ground attack bomber unit somewhen after Vichy. Alternatively the French Player get some aircraft (a fighter and a strategic bomber) after Germany declines Vichy. In our gáme neither the French got some aircraft (there was no Vichy decision because of the way, steelwarrior played ]see above]) nor the british got them from the US... Is this possible? I got some air Units with the british in egypt (I think it was the wester desert fighters Event...?) but I belive, these are not the formerly French ordered plains from US and I would have got the desert fighters in every case, right? So I belive there is a mistake in the Events structure, when the axis goes this way. It doesn't make sense, that the allied Player doesn't get these valuable plains at all... What do you think? Furchtlosundtrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill101 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Hi Furchtlosundtrew I've just checked the scripts and if Germany does not form Vichy then these air units should deploy at Algiers on the 3rd June 1940, or as soon after that when the Vichy Decision is made. The interesting thing is that the scripts are set so that the Vichy decision should have been presented to the German player regardless of how he played. If for some reason this didn't happen then that would explain why the aircraft didn't arrive. However, I can't actually see how the Vichy decision could not have been offered, so I am a little confused. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furchtlosundtrew Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 Hi Bill, mh, ok, not quite shure (we should ask steelwarrior for that if we Need more informations). But my Explanation is the following: He didn't take Paris before he took Algiers, so the French NM didn't reach the Point, where he was asked for Vichy (until this Point I'm shure) until the following: Than he managed to conquer Algiers and took Paris after that in the same turn (he was waiting outside the empty Paris with one unit). He had Bordeaux before, so there was no alternative French capital in this moment. Because of this French NM reached 0 or at least the critical Point for it's capitualtion. Maybe Steelwaarior was asked for Vichy in this Moment, but of course he refused. And at this Moment Algiers was already in his Hands (as described above) so the French gouvernment was not able to move to Algiers and France did capitulate completely after his turn. So he did refuse Vichy (what means the british cannot get the plains themselves anymore) but there was no France anymore so they couldn't get the planis either... Could that be possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill101 Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Hi I don't know, because he should be offered the Vichy Decision if France surrenders, no matter what caused France to surrender or whether or not Algiers is in Axis hands, and the aircraft's arrival is determined by the Vichy Decision. If Steelwarrior can shed some light on things from his viewpoint then it might help. Thanks Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furchtlosundtrew Posted February 26, 2015 Author Share Posted February 26, 2015 Hi Bill, I'll ask him, if he doesn't read here. But if I am right, the solution is simple: - If Vichy is declined by the axis, France gets the plains, right? - France gets the plains in´it's next turn after the Vichy-Decision, right? - And if France doesn't exist in the next turn anymore (because it did completely surrender in the same moment), there is no France, that can get the plains and therefore no one gets the plains... Even if this is not true, the events with the plains could be handled better. Why not making another decision Event: "Shell the plains be delivered to England (Yes) or to France (No), so the Player of the Allies can choose, which is the better way. And this one would even be more historic, maybe. I believe the US Gouvernment would have not delivered plains to a France, that is still alive, but with it's end very near and very obvious... (and that is what happens, if someone Plays like steelwarrior and goes for Algiers with all he can...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill101 Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 (edited) Hi Furchtlosundtrew The problem is that the Vichy Decision determines what happens to France, and the scripts are designed for Vichy France to be formed or for France's capital to move to Algiers and for France to then receive reinforcements at Algiers (one HQ, one Army, and the air units). If Vichy France is not formed then the air units would automatically deploy: The Tactical Bombers from 3rd June 1940 The Strategic Bombers from 20th June 1940 But if there is no Vichy Decision presented to the Axis player, then none of this will happen. However, I cannot see any circumstances in which the Vichy Decision would not be presented to the Axis player when France surrenders, no matter why it surrendered. So, the most important thing we need to know is whether or not Steelwarrior had the Vichy Decision Event at all. He should have done when France surrendered, but I have the feeling that it didn't happen, which is very odd, providing of course that the campaign is as per the default with no scripts turned off. I am also thinking about how to improve things for the future, and hopefully my thoughts should also make it more viable for France to receive the aircraft orders. Bill Edited February 26, 2015 by Bill101 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelwarrior77 Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Hey, I did get Vichy, but the same turn France surrendered due to me also occupying Algiers ;-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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