Computer Upgrade Recommendation

[fatherof4]

I'm sorry if this has been covered somewhere else but I've looked and looked and didn't see it. Besides, Fionn just said this is a friendly place. :-D

I'm so excited about Combat Mission that I've finally decided it's time to take the plunge and upgrade my 133. For me, the decision to buy CM is not a $50 one but a $1500 one. Not to put any pressure on BTS but it better be worth it

What do you guys recommend I get? I'd like something that will last me 2 (or dare I say it ... 3 years). Like most wargamers, I'm slow to upgrade and when I do I want it to last as long as possible.

I know I want to stay with Windows and keep it under $1500 but other than that, I'm a neophyte.

The choices seem endless but my main questions are:

1. I've always had Intel clones but have recently heard from a more knowledgeable friend that Intel's chips are more "stable" and may indeed be worth the extra money. Truth or Marketing?

2. What 3d card to buy? Voodoo's seem to be the most common now but I'm afraid of getting something that's going to be the 3D card equivalent of a Betamax VCR.

3. How long will 64 MB last me? I'm sure 96MB is better and 128 MB is top of the line but I currently have 32 MB and I'm happy with it.

I know the more you spend, the more you get but since money is always limited, I figured I'd ask guys who know the best thing to do on a a home computer is TO PLAY WARGAMES!

FYI, Today I can get an AMD-K6®-2 475 MHz system with 64 MB RAM, 8.4 GB Hard Drive, 3dfx™ Voodoo2™ 3D Accelerator w/ 12 MB EDO DRAM, and a 19" .26dp Color Monitor for $1480 delivered. What do you think?

[Pixman]

I think it's a darn good deal! You did not mention CDROM or DVD, but I'm sure it comes with one or the other. In my book, the large, high resolution monitor pushes it over the top! The rest of the configuration is not shabby either. The RAM should be plenty for now. I would ask what is the max you can expand it to. Other than that, rock and roll. Or is that lock and load?

[A Arabian]

1. I've never owned an intel chip and have never had problems. Personally, I would go with an AMD - much cheaper and really very good. I'd avoid cyrix - they are (in my experience programming hard core math stuff) really crappy, to use technical terms.

2. Can't help with the 3d card thing. Mine is first gen 4 meg, so I'm way behind the curve....

3. Don't sweat the ram. Its REALLY easy to upgrade. I just bought a 32 meg dimm for 30 bucks (and that was at best buy, so its big overhead)

As for the machine, sounds like a very good deal. Personally I think a good monitor is by far the best investment one can make in a computer. You can hang onto that long past the lifespan of whatever machine you buy. As for the general specs, remember that PCs are really quite upgradable. The only thing thats hard generally is a new CPU, and thats only because you have to hunt down all the jumpers. But as it stands now, I have a P200 with 64 meg of ram, and I have yet to feel any real limitations. Great, I can't play the newest 1st person shooter in all its glory. Whoopee. The fact of the matter is that things I am interested in (CM for one... )arn't nearly as demanding as the rest of the eye candy out there. I'll upgrade someday, but probably after I get out of grad school (and who knows what will be cutting edge 1, er, 2, er, 5 or 6 years from now)

A. Arabian

PS: Just be careful of the 4 (that you are father of). Theyre the real threat, I'd say...

[This message has been edited by A Arabian (edited 06-03-99).]

[Guest PatB_TGN]

Re: Fatherof4

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1. I've always had Intel clones but have recently heard from a more knowledgeable friend that Intel's chips are more "stable" and may indeed be worth the extra money. Truth or Marketing?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Both, actually. You'll find very little to no stability problems with single processor AMD's or Intel's.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>2. What 3d card to buy? Voodoo's seem to be the most common now but I'm afraid of getting something that's going to be the 3D card equivalent of a Betamax VCR.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no easy answer for this question. Many a flame war has been generated concerning 'the best' 3D card on the market. Price alone does NOT mean a 3D card is better than another one. FWIW, I am running a RivaTNT 16 Meg Video card. You can find that these cards have hit rock bottom prices on the net.

www.computershopper.com

www.pricewatch.com

Is this card the best? No. But I don't purchase the latest and greatest Computer Hardware. Video cards are rarely released with ideal/perfected video drivers. Go with a slightly older Video card with de-bugged/current drivers. It will save you a lot of hassle and some extra cash. Video cards are a cinche to upgrade.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>3. How long will 64 MB last me? I'm sure 96MB is better and 128 MB is top of the line but I currently have 32 MB and I'm happy with it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

64 Megs is the bare essential. Memory pricing is rather interesting... You'll find that OLDER memory is more costly than newer memory. So, go with 64 megs as the basic. Many OS guru's would argue that Win9X does not effeciently use memory addressing >64 megs. But it doesn't hurt to have more than 64, if you can afford it.

I spend about $400.00 a year on computer upgrades. This includes upgrading the motherboard, CPU, CD-rom, etc etc... But I do not buy the 'newest' thing available. New computer hardware ~~ New computer problems. My current CPU is a Celeron 300A. It also happens to be overclocked to 464 Mhz. Cost? $75.00 for the CPU and $20.00 for the FAB24 Fan set. <-- this is 10 month old technology.

However, my motherboard is fully capable of 133Mhz Front side bus and Pent3's. So is my Samsung G8 memory module. So somewhere down the long road of upgrades, I'll plop in a Pentium three and be happy Then, I'll have to grab a new video card, etc...

FWIW, at the current rate of computer CPU speeds, the double-factor is 18-24 months. If you buy a 300 mhz system now, in less than two years, there will be 600 mhz systems on the market.

-Patrick

[This message has been edited by PatB_TGN (edited 06-03-99).]

[Doug Beman]

As I sit waiting to talk to somebody about my college loans...

That computer sounds like a darn good deal to me, also. I've always had "real" Intel chips, but, so far as I know, the available options are viable; a friend of mine bought a K6-266 and has had no troubles with it. Have you looked into the Intel "Celeron" chips? They're sort of like a Pentium 1.75; clock speeds of ~300-350, not as much onboard memory as a true P-II chip, but the chips cost around $80 (at least they cost that when I upgraded at Christmas) If the PC maker you're looking at features "piece-by-piece" building, it might be worth it to look into it.

The video accelerator-card stuff is, like already remarked, only semi-important for "us wargamers." The VooDoo2 chip is quite powerful, providing the rest of the board is up to snuff. For leads on which VooDoo2 board is "the best" check out a website like pcgamer.com or gamespot.com or sharkyextreme.com. Those places all have very complete hardware-review archives.

As for the standard video display adapter 9the '2D' card) check out stuff like the Diamond Viper 770. If you wanna save money and get a card that does 2D and 3D in one complete package, the ATI company makes some highly-regarded products. As a 'jack of all trades' solution, you're not going to get the absolute best of 2D or 3D, but as already said, that's not critical. One thing I'd strongly suggest is looking into getting a 3D card with 16 MB of RAM--that should better "hold the line" between current generation stuff and a year from now. A 12 MB card might be fine now, but in a year or so (when CM2 comes out) 12 may be the minimum 3D RAM. I have 8 MB; I bought the card last summer and haven't even played a 3D game yet!

BTS will smack me down if I'm wrong, but what's probably going to be at least as important as polygon-drawing ability will be CPU speed and RAM. CombatMission's engine will be crunching LOTS of numbers, and for that you need a fast chip with lotsa RAM, two things the system you mentioned have.

Make sure to get a decent sound card. Diamond's MonsterSound MX300 is good (just be careful when you install the utilities; on my system they fouled up all my system sounds) CreativeLabs' stuff is highly reviewed, and the current PCGamer carries a review of a soundcard/headphones combo from Xitel; good, clean sound from the card, VERY good headphones (possibly important with 4 sleeping offspring)

Above all, make sure to buy from a reputable source--Micron, Gateway, or a big-chain store.

Okay. Didn't mean to get so long-winded and preachy. Do what you want, and have fun doing it.

NOW I have a question for BTS, assuming they actually read to the end of this blather:

On a system with a 4a50 mHz CPU and 64 MB of RAM, about how long will it take for the game to resolve one turn? I remember playing ActionStations on my old 8086; on the larger battles, I could hit the NextTurn button, switch off the monitor, and go watch most of a half-hour show before the turn was processed. Ah, those were the days.

DjB

[Doug Beman]

Ah, rats. Pat's response got in 18 minutes before mine. It wasn't my fault, I tell you. It was being on hold with the loan people.

Honest.

DjB

[Guest Big Time Software]

Fatherof4,

Charles just got a K6 366 clone (Gateway I think) fairly well decked out for well under $1000 less monitor. The system you mentioned sounds fine, but the Voodoo2 card isn't our first choice. It is better than most, but our favorite is ATI. Personally, I would go for a 3rd gen 32MB card. However, everything you mentioned is cool so far as CM goes.

Steve

[Guest Big Time Software]

Doug,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>On a system with a 4a50 mHz CPU and 64 MB of RAM, about how long will it take for the game to resolve one turn?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We actually don't have anything that fast here. However, I can tell you that on a 366 Mhz K6 it takes about 10-15 seconds.

Charles

[Fionn]

Fatherof4 I lied.

We KNOW where you live now that you've posted and we're a coming to get you .... to buy a copy of CM.. Don't think we'll need to persuade you too much hehe. just kidding I'm in one of my jovial moods.. probably cause it's 5am and I'm WAY high on caffeine .

As for the system...

CPU speed and as much Ram as you can get are always top of my list. Big monitor is a great bonus but make sure it can comfortably refresh more than 75 times / second at even the highest resolution with the particular card you get. U spend a LONG time staring at the screen so it pays to put money in here.

Graphics card. Well I've had some talks with Teut at Wingssimulations who is developing another game about cards and with other knowledgeable folks and they seem to go for either ATI or umm Riva... BUT for a wargamer 3D accel isn't a big issue .

Hell my 3d card MGA200 broke and I could still play my games cause only the 3d portion broke.. Still waiting on my godamned banshee to arrive. Why a Banshee? Well it's old, slowish, etc BUT it will work, its drivers are unbugged AND it was free hehe (If I ever get it ).

If I was to change anything it would be the Voodoo and the Ram. Ram is dirt cheap and the difference between 64 and 128 does show IMO. Right now I'd think seriously about a basement PIII if u can get it cheap since then when you have to upgrade you can stick with the motherboard BUT I think a Celeron 300 overclocked is the way to go if u don't want to splash out a lot now for the novelty of a PIII. A Celeron 300 overclocked to 450ish should run all wargames easily..

Again, it's all down to budget and requirements.

I run a K6 II 333 with 128 Mb Ram, malfunctioning graphics card and a PCI-128 (which has also given me no end of trouble)... If I had it to do again I would buy a Celeron and overclock.

[Herr Oberst]

Just one more bit of info to throw into the fray...

Overclocking. Evil, evil, evil. Yes, I know alot of folks who do it, and survive, but there are some facts about CPUs you might want to know.

Does Intel have a separate production line for 300's, 350's, 400's and 450's? Nooooo.

They produce the batches of chips, then seat each one on the fastest testbed, let's say a 450Mhz board. Those that pass the burn-in period with no faults are stamped 450mhz chips. Those that fail are "demoted" to 400Mhz test-bed board where they are tested at this speed. Those that pass w/out faults are stamped 400Mhz, and so on down the Mhz line.

So a CPU that is stamped at a given Mhz has that stamp because at higher clocks, it failed some test somewhere.

Just be informed about what overclocking means from both sides of the equation.

Video Cards - others have said it, and I'll re-iterate in my own fashion. We here at work don't call the very latest video cards the "bleeding edge" without cause. Faulty drivers can be a nightmare, as well as extremely frustrating. I went with the nVidia TNT 16MB video card myself. Not the latest video chip technology, but still a racehorse.

To sum it up:

1. Buy the best machine you can afford, and swear that you won't look at PC prices for at least a year.

2. More RAM is good (128MB).

3. More clock cycles are good (350Mhz or better).

4. Big-a$$ed drives are good (Got 18 Gig at home).

5. A really good 17 inch monitor is truly adequate for everything. Save a little on the monitor and throw those $$ into clock speed or RAM.

6. Enjoy what you get!

[Fionn]

Well, Herr Oberst I'm no tech wizard BUT the Celerons are renowned for their overclocking stability.

Also you're not entirely correct when u discuss chip manufacture. Some CPUs might be made like that but it was my impression that many aren't/

The thing that set the Celeron apart was that the CPUs in THAT line were all exactly the same up to 450, the only difference was a few jmper settings. So basically you can buy a 300, change the jumpers and have the EXACT same system as a Celeron 450.

Is that correct?

[Doug Beman]

Follow this link:

http://www.sharkyextreme.com/hardware/celeron_oc/

It's the overclocking guide my brother-in-law used when he installed my Celeron 300 (450) mHz chip over Christmas.

6 months of ~3 hours/day with no faults yet. If it goes even another 6 months, I figure I've gotten my 75$ out of it (since the motherboard and RAM are good for a "real" PII down the line, when the PIII's availability dumps the PII's price)

Of course, after CM arrives, I may be on my PC around 12 hours/day...

DjB

[fatherof4]

Pix, Arab, Pat, Doug, Fionn, Herr O, and BTS,

THANKS FOR THE INFO! Believe it or not, I learned a little from all of you.

I feel a lot better now about making the "jump". I just pre-ordered CM but need to get a few more things off my honey-do list before my wife will let me actually order the computer.

BTW, as a result of your comments, I think I'll drop the Voodoo2 card and put that $100 into increasing the memory to 128 MB. Sounds to me like standard video card with the system in my original note (an MPact2 2D/3D/DVD w/ 8 MB), will be good enough for now. I'll be able to put in a new add-on card when necessary (for CM2+?).

Thanks again,

"fatherof4"

p.s. Not sure it's appropriate or not but this deal is from CyberMaxpc.com. Since they're an advertizer with Wargamer.com (the site where I first learned about CM), I'll give them a plug here.

[Doug Beman]

He bought it. That was a great idea, Charles, having us pretend to be other people to increase sales. Role-playing at its best!

hee hee sometimes I kill me!

Fo4--sounds good. Wait until a company like ATI introduces a 2D/3D card based around the TNT2 chip. From what I've heard in the mags, VooDoo3 is all about framerate; TNT2 is more about features and image quality. You shouldn't have to wait more than 6 months.

Now, get out there and mow the lawn (or whatever) nothing can be allowed to delay your quest for computing heaven!

Best of luck to ya and the 4 and the sigother.

DjB

[Herr Oberst]

Hmm... Seems like things have changed since I was last involved in any sort of overclocking. Went off and read the Sharkey info, lots of good stuff there. Especially since I am getting ready to oust the "venerable old" Pentium 200MMX. Now the choices are alot less clear. I was thinking pure-bred Pentium II, but I might just overclock a Celeron myself.