Price of CM for Overseas Customers

[Mattias]

Reality check:

Age of Kingdoms (Chips and Bits)

45 (44.99) + 10 for shipping = 55

Combat mission

45 + 18 for shipping = 63

difference 8$ = a decent lunch here in Stockholm, Sweden

Now, after considering this. Read and understand the Battlefront manifest.

Now you know why it is not sold through retailers.

Just like any product uniquely produced in any specific place all over the world it is more costly on the other side of the globe.

For your reference: I pay 399 – 499 kronor for a new game here, that translates into 48-60$$

Questions?

[Guest Big Time Software]

Royston,

I think most people have pointed out that you are being somewhat unreasonable when you state that our price is outrageous. Other than that, all I can say is that we are simply trying to cover our direct costs. If those costs should go down (and we are ALWAYS trying to get better rates) then the S&H comes down too. But then again, we could just make the S&H rate free and charge $60 for the game and call it even.

Unfortunately, we have to pay for the services we use on top of the many man years of our time. Someone has to pay for this, and that someone is the customer. If you don't wish to respect this, and either not buy CM or steal it, then there isn't much we can do about that. But we certainly aren't a charitable organization here, so we MUST pass the costs on to the customer. That is called being "commercially viable". If we aren't, then guess what? We go out of business and then you won't be able to by the next Combat Mission for ANY price, not even the $100,000 you would spend on a car. Think about that a little...

Steve

[Brian Rock]

Royston,

The reason the pirates can sell CDs for $3 is that they stole them.

If I want to deal with thieves I can also buy a nice new TV for $100 from some mug in a pub. Does it follow that the TV manufacturers should drop the prices of their TVs to $80 to stop theft?

As for the social pressure argument, I think that's dodgy. Nobody says you have to tell your friends where you got your copy of a piece of software from.

Yes, I know there are retail centres pretty much devoted to piracy. (This is not a flame on Singapore. I've holidayed and worked in Singapore, and have a number of friends and colleagues there). Sure, it is easy to buy off pirates, but it's not compulsory.

So if you choose to take advantage of criminal activity you can. But please don't tell me you had no choice. I have dozens of Singaporean students and Singaporean friends who would find that offensive.

There are always choices, even in Singapore.

[Guest titan]

Royston

I also live in New Zealand,and you are complaining about what it is costing you!!! well our exhange rate aint that sharp either i order x2copies which will end up costing me $125.00 each approx.I aint complaining,and the thought of trying to obtain a pirated copiy has never occurred to me nor will i stoop to that level to save a few bucks!!!every person sets there own standards in life Royston.End of the day i would like to see these blokes knock out a few more games in this line so im happy to support them and see them get rewarded for there efforts and risks they have taken to get this thing through,things cant be that tight at home Royston where a few extra dollars is gunna hurt the rice bowl surely not.

Hey anyway Royston i do respect your courage for speaking your mind,im just speaking mine.

Titan

[Royston]

It's good to hear a little from everyone, but let's get some things clear.

First: intellectual property is something that be placed in a product again. And again. And again. This takes away the comparison of physical theft (e.g. stealing a TV). If I stole a TV, someone has one less TV.

The problem with most copyright owners screaming that everyone who buys a pirated copy instead of buying one is cheating them of the price of the game is flawed logic. It cannot follow that 100% of people playing pirated copies would have bought an original copy otherwise. At the cost of $100, I'll either be playing a pirate copy, or NOT playing it.

It can therefore be regarded a moral choice in cases where I would clearly not spend the money, and not a case in which I'm putting BTS out of business. People make doubtful moral choices all the time. Pre-marital sex. Drugs. Bar brawls. All. The. Time. Logical arguments don't make them disappear. Attacking the root of the issue will. e.g. why a bar brawl occurs, instead of why a bar brawl is bad.

Second: I've stated that piracy is wrong. It's not justifiable. I thought you were reasonable Fionn, but it's apparent your emotions have gotten the better of you, and personal insults, such as saying I have no morals, have proven this. I have morals. If I didn't, I'd have just pirated the game, no questions asked. What I'm doing is to appeal to BTS to adopt a scheme to make it cheaper for overseas customers, such as licensing. Unlike a publisher, licensees will be happy to pay a fee and take over from there.

Third: I am NOT a pirate. A pirate is a primary infringer and is the person actually breaching the copyright. I am a secondary infringer, and hence not liable to criminal action. BTS may bring a civil action against any number of secondary infringers, but I guarantee that the costs of retaining counsel will far exceed the recovery of any damages.

No one wants to hear the reasons for buying pirated software. Sure, the reasons may be illogical, and poor, but they make sufficient sense to some people to warrant the action. The word, perhaps, is pragmatic. Despite living in Asia, I've tried my best to do my bit for software developers. I'm not a morally outstanding person, like Fionn seems to think everyone who buys original games exclusively are (I hope you enjoy walking on water and raising the dead to boot), but for BTS to direct sell like its doing really makes it hard for people like myself. I'm ALREADY paying a premium buying original games, so to speak. Doubling the local price is not helping. It's not a difference of $8. It's a difference of $50. I don't know how rich you guys are, but that's a lot of money. Well, at least at my current income level. Morality only goes so far before pragmatism takes over. This is a global principle. If you think US always does the 'right thing' because its the world's guardian angel, you have another think coming.

Here's a little test: let's say Intel makes a $700 chip. Along comes company X which makes the same chip at $50 by stealing Intel's designs. I think most of us would be patting ourselves on the back if we managed to get a company X chip and saved $650. Why? Bigotry in action? Cheat the small guys or the big guys - it's still the same thing. Big sin or little sin?

I've tried to be as rational, as honest, and as straightforward as possible. For those who have recognised that, I sincerely thank you.

This will be the last post to a thread I very much regret having started. As Fionn has kindly pointed out to me, my shortcoming was feeling morally conflicted and attempting to solve it publicly. It appears that one is either a software thief or an ardent supporter of original software and there is absolutely no middle ground. I concede the moral highground and retreat to the shadows where I suppose I belong.

[Guest Scott Clinton]

> First: intellectual property is something

> that be placed in a product again. And

> again. And again. This takes away the

> comparison of physical theft

> (e.g. stealing a TV).

Ooooooo...as a software developer I must take serious issue with this in a HUGE way.

First off: If it is stealing it makes no difference morally (and that is what we are talking about) what the cost of the to produce the product is or how many or easily it can be reproduced.

Secondly: Your argument seems to based on the fact that intellectual property can be sold forever... Where did you get that idea? Now, I LOVE CM (really I do Steve ) but....do you REALLY think BTS will be selling a lot of copies of it in 10 years? I doubt they will be selling and it probably would not even run on those systems without special configuration (mental note: do not sell current PC…ever!)

So intellectual property does have a limited life span. Much more limited than your stolen TV. Whereas your stolen TV would most likely still of use in 20 years, CM is much more limited.

IMO, BTS needs to get their return within the next 3-5 years at the outside (feel free NOT to comment on this Steve as this is proprietary knowledge). I think I read somewhere that most large companies expect to get 90% of their profit from a software release within the first twelve months. Now, I know that BATTLEFRONT.COM is targeting a much longer time frame with its releases (and rightfully so for us grognards), but 3-5 would still be about maximum IMHO.

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The Grumbling Grognard

[RobVarak]

Royston wrote:

Third: I am NOT a pirate. A pirate is a primary infringer and is the person actually breaching the copyright. I am a secondary infringer, and hence not liable to criminal action. BTS may bring a civil action against any number of secondary infringers, but I guarantee that the costs of retaining counsel will far exceed the recovery of any damages

---------------------------------------------

As an attorney, I'd be happy to offer my services pro bono in this case. Anybody as misguided and egocentric as Royston derserves to have his hand slapped. Should he pirate the game (be it as primary or secondary infringer), he is liable under those internationa copyright conventions which provide equitable relief for those seeking to protect themselves from parasites like Royston.

Furthermore, since he has actively advocated and incited the act of software piracy, any judge operating under the direction of the primary international copyright conventions would view his conduct as being particularly worthy of censure.

While international causes of action are usually expensive and tricky, that is not so in this case. Copyright infringement is among the easiest actions to bring based on the breadth of international treaties. And since I'm offering to do it for free that should keep costs down.

Rob

[Fionn]

Royston,

Oh I am reasonable BUT I simply don't think that you presenting what amounts to theft as a "logical choice" holds ANY water.

BTW I was careful to point out that I thought PIRATES were scum. If you don't pirate then I won't think you're scum BUT since you pirate you bring that appelation upon yourself.

As for people who buy games not all being morally upstanding... I'm sure some aren't HOWEVER in buying the game they are not actively committing an illegal act.

In purchasing an illegal pirated copy you are ACTIVELY committing an illegal act. To try to compare yourself and a legitimate gamebuyer and lessen the condemnation which should be heaped upon you for, specifically, receiving pirated merchandise is absurd.

"Morality only goes so far before pragmatism takes over." Thank you for pointing out exactly the sort of thinking that has this world in a mess. Unfortunately far too many unprincipled people who espouse your viewpoint are in charge.

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___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Thomas Davie]

Royston; For what it's worth, here is what I as a Canadian would pay for the game;

$45 US (67.50 Cdn)

$8 US Shipping (12.00 Cdn)

That's $79.50 Cdn

Add provincial sales tax of 4.73, and Federal tax of 4.73 and importation tax of God knows what (it's almost a whim what Canada Customs charges, but the last game I mail ordered was $15 Cdn ).

So let's say a grand total of $103.96 Cdn

I could download the game for free (but I won't). I can also pass on the game if I'm not willing to pay the price. But neither would I give a rat's ass if my friends laughed at me for not playing it because I didn't steal it.

Shrug. Your choice. The last bottle of Scotch that I bought cosr almost as much as I figure CM would.

Tom

[Guest Big Time Software]

Royston, stealing is stealing, even if you are stealing ideas. Taking someone's written word for your own use is called plagerism, and is a crime that can get you kicked out of school or put in jail for (depending). Stealing someone else's product concept, and putting it into your own, is called pattent enfringement. Taking a slogan or something from another is called trademark violation. Taking credit for another's action is called Fraud.

See? No physical materials passing between the two parties, just ideas. But it is still legally and morally wrong. And these concepts have been around for hundreds of years. Or do you disagree with all of these thigns too? Now you might come up with the lame argument that since you are just a end user this you are somehow exempt.

The bottom line is this ->

WE MADE COMBAT MISSION AND THEREFORE IT IS OUR PROPERTY Do you really think that CM just appeared?!? We spent about 5 man years of our lives on this, and have spent money to create the art, code, etc. The notion that this is just some feebie thing floating in the air is not only ridiculous, it also shows a serious problem with your ability to think rationally and logically.

YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO IT UNLESS YOU AGREE TO OUR TERMS OF SALE

let me repeat... YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO IT NO MATTER IF WE CHAGE $1 OR $1000000000. Why, because it is NOT YOURS UNTIL YOU PAY FOR IT.

Your only right is to chose NOT to buy a product if you don't like the price. That is the ONLY LEGAL OR MORAL CHOICE YOU HAVE. If we have something, and you don't like the price we charge that is tough. Don't buy it, and don't use it.

And please, don't try and shield yourself from your own morally and legally indefensible position. It makes me think very little of you, even though I know nothing about you. You have NO right to Combat Mission without compensating us for the work we put into it. Plain and simple.

Steve

P.S. Got an order from, er, Singapore from someone else just yesterday. And there was an order from Thailand as well. Guess they should get their's for free too?

P.P.S. every court in the world supports the concept of intellectual property, even if some don't enforce it (China is one).

[Reverendo]

I do think the whole thing is much simpler than that. Things have a price. Sometimes they're worth it, sometimes they aren't. In my opinion, Combat Mission is worth its price. I would buy it iven if I had to pay twice the amount they're asking for. If it is not your case, then don't buy it.

Anyway, if you were to play without buying it (that is, by piracy) then it's illegal.

Perhaps you really want to do illegal things. Perhaps you want to be a criminal. Then, let me tell you something. For criminals, it is really a bad thing to claim the crime to everybody. What I mean is that you could be far more stealthy. Writing your piracy intentions on a software company's message board doesn't only tell us you're a pirate. It also tells us you're not even a good one.

Regards

El Reverendo

P.S: I'm buying the damned game, for the Devil. It's only 60$, don't think you'll have to sell your car to afford it.

[dumbo]

"First: intellectual property is something that be placed in a product again. And again. And again. This takes away the comparison of physical theft (e.g. stealing a TV). If I stole a TV, someone has one less TV."

Sorry man but if I rape a woman nobody has "lost" anything but its still a crime. Same deal with software piracy, you took something that you had no right too.

[Reverendo]

Why to argue? Piracy is bad, and so is rape. If there's a way to justify it, it's beyond my ken. Perhaps some people may not find piracy wrong, as few people may not find rape wrong (the ones who actually rape, I say) but the fact is that, from an objective point of view, it is illegal, therefore bad. If you do it or support it, you're against the law. And it isn't that I don't want to hear the way people have to justify that, it isn't that I don't want to hear any reasons to say it is wrong either, it IS that I don't NEED them, and I think none of us do. Sometimes people argue about nothing at all. So, if I was to make a brief summary...

Piracy is illegal.

Doing illegal things means being a criminal.

Therefore, pirates are criminals.

That's enough for me... :¬)

Now, have we had enough of this little chat?

P.S: every crime may get worse. Piracy is bad, but pirating a game like CM is... BLASPHEMY! (please check 'FLATTER AT WILL, MEN!' thread to see what I mean)

[Reverendo]

Whoa, I hadn't read the last thing Royston wrote. The 'second infringer' thing is just ABSURD. Remember Adam Smith? Aye, the almighty good fellow who boosted industry. Thanks to him, we ken that if nobody bought drugs, nobody would sell drugs. That's just an example. What I'm saying is that if you buy pirated copies, you're telling pirates to keep stealing and selling software. You're supporting their affairs, you're supporting them. I do not ken if there are legal actions against 'second infringers', but from a moral point of view, being a 'second infringer' and trying to justify it is far worse than actually being a pirate. Since you ken they do wrong and you say it's their fault. NO!. You're on the wrong side (the pirates) and you're even BETRAYING THEM!. You're a double deceiver. 'Second infringers' are the source of the five hundred poisons, laddy. And I can tell you if I heard that somebody raped my girlfriend and I heard you lad supported it, I don't ken if the judge would care about you, but I would surely hang you with barbed wire. It wouldn't make any difference to me. And I DO think it DOESN'T make any difference to ANYONE but YOU.

To put it simple:

a) By buying pirated copies, you're giving pirates a job.

Pirates ruin software companies' budget.

c) Ruined budgets ruin workers' lives.

d) Therefore, ruining lives is the pirates' job

e) So supporting their job is being guilty for ruining lives.

If this was the middle age, a thousand peasants with torches would be at your door claiming vengeance. I do not have anything against Royston (yet) but I think he SHOULD think twice. See, if things get worse, I offer you to buy TWO copies of CM. I keep one, you keep the other one. Yes, I'm saying I would BUY you a copy. But please don't buy a pirated copy. If saving BTS is worth 100 bucks, I will gladly pay 200. And I'm SERIOUS about it. Mail me if you want to talk about it...

aradigales@mad.servicom.es

[Fionn]

Reverendo,

Seriously, it's a great offer but don't waste your money on him.

Anyways, you've got a Scottish reputation for stinginess to keep up. Stop being so nice and understanding .

BTW IF you want to buy anyone a copy of CM I suggest you wait around until some kid who can't afford it (for real) finds out about it... IF you want to be nice at least be nice to someone who deserves it..

JUST my opinion of course. It's your money to do with as you will

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___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Richard]

Royston,

It is simply not that simple. True folks who have no interest, and pirate (who are the worst kinds since they see the games they trade like some sort of damn tradeable Pokemon card or something) won't buy the game regardless. However if Pirates didn't exist, lets say in my world they don't, so you didn't have that option would you maybe consider buying it? If the answer is no fine. However a large percentage of folks WOULD. Pirating hurts companies and more importantly it can KILL a small development company. Any other argument is just crazy IMHO.

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Richard Arnesen

The Wargamer

http://www.wargamer.com

[ChrisB]

I dont know why this thread is into piracy. I do not condone it, but I would like to restate what I see as the initial point.

Combat mission looks like a nice game, and I would like to buy it. At $45+$18 S/H+an estimated $16 import tax=$79. A pretty hefty price for a game. Personally, I will not buy it, for this reason. When every other game retails for less than $50 I currently do not see any reason to pay this much for this title. And since every retail copy includes a $20-$30 (or more) take for the retail store and distirubutor, I wonder why the game is not cheaper.

Of course if some retail store buys it from BF and lets me buy it for a reasonable price, or if I somehow can co-buy it with a friend, I will get it. I have a friend who has preordered it (and has probed me to buy a copy to be his opponent) Is it possible for him to add a copy intended for me to his order, or are all placed orders locked? (That would bring it down to $69 or so)

[Guest R Cunningham]

Apart from the legal moral issues already addressed from both sides I offer up this point of practicality.

Royston goes to the pirate and says "one copy of Combat Mission."

Pirate says, "What the f%&$ is that?"

There are two kinds of pirates I can think of. There are the profit hackers that pirate games to finance their own little computer hobby and the schoolyard type pirates who make copies for friends who can't afford the games at full retail. In either situation I think CM is less than a prime candidate for piracy. The battlefront

manifesto explains some of this. Wargames are not mass appeal games. Sales figures will not hit Myst levels. Cutting out the publisher cut is important to allow BTS to develop games and still survive with relatively low sales figures compared to C&C 3 (first print run over 2 million copies). Pirates will pirate the big titles. CM won't be in stores. Pirates won't be asked about it. I can't see a pirate ordering one real copy to pirate from and selling 1 copy for $3 to Royston after shelling out $100 bucks or whatever. Given the nature of the prospective wargame customer base who understand the small size of our hobby and the need to avoid jeopardizing it's future by pirating the game, piracy will be minimal.

CM will be pirated by someone, somewhere I'm sure but not for profit. I can see a dedicted fan burning a copy for a friend in the hopes of conversion to the faith, but mass piracy of such a game with built in limited appeal makes no sense.

[Marko]

I can't believe this! 90-something% of this debate has been conducted in a reasonable manner. There's been almost no name-calling out of spite. What online forum can boast of this?

Marko;

[Reverendo]

Fionn,

Aye, I guess I should be a bit rough sometimes... Anyway, I agree with you...

El Reverendo

[argie]

I don't agree with Marko. I think the people here take the easy way of put a line between morality and crime instead of listen the things that happens in real (third) world. But my english is too bad to discuss this topic in deep.

Then, my little contribution: what about licensing? Maybe in a reginal basis. Here in Argentina we can access Brazil, Paraguay, Uruguay and other countries with less cost. Same for some country in Asia, I think. Or NZ. The licensor (spelling?) could even translate the manual. Steve say, replying to Royston, that two asian people (2) had do a preorder. Two in betwen how many thousand potential customers?

I think you must forget morality in this and listen carefully to Royston. Is Capitalism what we are all talking here. I'm pretty sure that capitalism and morality haven't nothing in common.

I had not make my preorder yet because the cost thing. I'm sure I gonna pay for the game. You Steve and Charles deserves it. And is for sure no one pirate here will have the interest in copying "this" game. Then I don't have the option to test my "morality".

Remember, you proudly caucasian people , you make Robin Hood an hero, and the British Empire was made with piracy acts.

Again, is capitalism the thing we are discussing.

Sorry by my "weird" english.

Ariel

[guachi]

Argie is pretty much correct when he says that capitalism and morality don't have much to do with one another.

But you can define property rights in a practical sense rather than a moral sense. Capitalism functions by an exchange of goods and services borne from the fruits of our labor. If people are not able to derive the rewards of their labor because of theft than capitalsm can't function correctly.

But people should realize theft is wrong by the time they are four.

It really is too bad that the cost of CM is prohibitivly high for some people overseas. But think of it this way. CM may actually SAVE you money. Buy CM and you won't need to buy any other games for an entire yeat. At least until CM2 comes out, that is.

Argie. Your English is actually fairly good. Much better than my Spanish. Just a few mix ups with prepositions and verb tenses.

Jason

[Guest PeterDwyer]

While it is all good and well to harp on the benefits of being honest, why not point out the real reasons of the increased cost of Combat Mission to Asia Pacific countries?

Air freight. ( I think).

While the average game in Australia costs almost twice the American version, currency differences show that part of this price is taken up by freight, or so I thought until SSI began to sell their games locally, which undercut their rivals by almost 50% and guaranteed that although it's sometimes hard to "validate" a game past ones favourite partner, such a game, at half price could be easily done.

Many times

The difference I feel with Combat Mission is not the price, which I feel is comparable with many American games. what I feel our distinguished singaporean gentleman has failed to calculate into the final cost is the shipment. Check out Amazons. How much does it cost to ship to our side of the pond?

A lot, by air. I have previously purchased from the aforementioned book mob, and when they say 8 to 12 weeks by ship, they mean it.

I think I'll suffer the extra cost to have the game delivered to me .

I understand Royston's whinge, but it is that, a whinge. Pay the freight, or offer Big Time Software a cheaper way to get it to you, if you want to wait, and wait.

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Peter Dwyer

[Fionn]

Let's face it Royston is probably willing to pay $50 over there for two games he'll play a little each. maybe 3 weeks each.

IMO Combat MIssion is going to offer a LOT more replayability than that so his entire argument falls down in the face of the fact that he DOES spend $100 on two games which last a short time but isn't willing to spend it on one game which will last many, many months (and IMO like SP will last until the next iteration).

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___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[ChrisB]

>The difference I feel with Combat Mission is not the price, which I feel is comparable with many American games. what I feel our distinguished singaporean gentleman has failed to calculate into the final cost is the shipment.

What big companies do for europe is send the master to europe and duplicate it there. This results in an "UK" version which for just about all sense is identical with the US version. However to any other european country , shipment is within the EU, and there are no import dues. Takes $30 or so off the cost.