MikeT Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 Gentlemen, tomorrow is the 11-11-11, November 11th; Veterans day. Please try to remember at 11AM all the GIs in all our wars that didn't make it home. Mike Thompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gespenster Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 Absolutely, we should never forget those heroes who gave up all of their tomorrows for all of our todays. My Grandfather (KIA Normandy 1944) being one of them... God bless the USA. JT ------------------ "It is well that War is so terrible, lest we grow to fond of it" Robert E. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JonS Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 um, not trying to be obnoxious here, but how 'bout remember veterans in general, and not hijacking 11/11/18 as a US-centric thing? No offence MikeT and Gespenster, but a lot of us here aren't from the US and have vets in the family. Thanks JonS ------------------ Quo Fas et Vino du Femme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT Posted November 11, 1999 Author Share Posted November 11, 1999 I agree and my apologies. I should have asked if non-US types celebrate the same day. So far the record, lets not forget all vets on both sides that fought the hard fight to defend their country, their families. Even those "on the wrong side" fought with honor and courage. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS was 71331 Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 Before the day became "Veterans' Day," it was "Armistice Day," celebrating the end of WWI on the eleventh day of the eleventh month of 1918. Remember the words of the Tom Lehrer song: "Heil -- Hail -- the Wehrmacht, I mean the Bundeswehr. Hail to our noble allies. MLF will scare Brezhnef. I hope he's only half as scared as I." Lehrer also said, "We taught them a lesson in 1918, and they've hardly bothered us since." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 Well 11am on the 11th of the 11th month was, originally a time for remembrance of the The Great War and Americans have turned it into their Veterans Day but to most around the world it is still a time for remembering the Great War and now, the Second World War. I will mark Remembrance Day myself as I'm in Europe and not American and find it more "all-embracing" than the US-centric Veterans Day. For what it's worth I think the phrase, "the wrong side" should be dropped by now. Soldiers on both sides fought for their countries. Some on all sides fought nobly, others fought to survive and others were cowards and malign beings. Rather than assigning right and wrong I prefer to think of the sheer waste of those wars. How many great thinkers and artists would we have today if their potential forefathers hadn't been killed in those years of butchery? That's what I prefer to dwell on at this time. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonFox Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 Remembrance day is pretty low key here in 'stralia. We have our own unique day (ANZAC) to honour and remember our vets (yes, we didn't 'hijack some other day' ). So Remembrance day is more about remembering all those who served from all nations. In fact it is 11am on the 11th here just about now.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 You maybe won't like to hear it, but here in the Rhineland, the 11th-11th is the day that carnival starts... oh, and isn't it St.Martin's day, too Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JonS Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 Simon, we have that one too (B!*@*&y theiving Aussies ... ) JonS ------------------ Quo Fas et Vino du Femme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonFox Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 oops! Oh well most of your population is over here anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JonS Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 LOL ('its funny because its true...') ------------------ Quo Fas et Vino du Femme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkEzra Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 May the guns stay silent for all our children. Tomrrow I'll remenber to thank a Vet and send a donation to Doctors Without Borders, a great and brave group, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_in_texas Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 Fionn, I agree wholeheartedly. To give one's life for one's country is, in my opinion, the ultimate sacrifice, regardless of who is finally determined to be right or wrong. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MajorH Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 Veterans Day is for the folks who came back. Memorial Day is for those who did not. The former should be observed with a celebration - the latter with somber and respectful ceremony. In my opinion it is unfortunate that the distinction has gotten blurred over the years. Instead of trooping to a cemetery tomorrow I am going to visit my wife's living, elderly father (a WWII combat vet) and say 'thank you'. ------------------ Best regards, Major H majorh1@aol.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumbo Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 Aye a good day to remember and say never again. Its always mixed emotions, gratitude for your nations soldiers sacrifices combined with the understanding of just how bloody horrible war is for all nations involved. As an englishman I think the best way I can "celebrate" this day if thats right word is to reaffirm a commitment to a united Europe so that such horrors never happen again. Its nice to see that wargamers who perhaps have a little more understanding of the subject tend to be less nationalistic than most. cheers to you all. _dumbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 Hi Major H, In countries OTHER than the US this day is a day of remembrance of the dead of the World Wars and other conflicts though. In the US it is Veterans day and you can celebrate it all you want but for us non-Americans it IS a day of mournful remembrance. Just pointing out that just because its vets day in America doesn't mean that: a) all of us are Americans and it isn't a different occasion to us in other countries. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gespenster Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 JonS, My wholehearded apologies as well. I too am a Veteran (Desert Storm) but on Veterans day I tend to think, not of myself, but of my Grandfather ... so please forgive me. I wasn't aware that Veterans day was such an international holiday. Fionn is absolutely right, even though my family suffered great loss in WWII (as many families did)I hold no hard feelings towards our former enemies. My wife is German (from Mannheim) and her family also suffered great loss during those harsh times (4 great uncles on the Russian Front) too me, everyone is a hero who served in that war (and all the wars before and since), no matter what side they fought for. God bless them all. JT ------------------ "It is well that War is so terrible, lest we grow to fond of it" Robert E. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest R Cunningham Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 Armistice day for some, Veteran's Day for some, St Martin's Day for some and for a much smaller group Founders' Day (Virginia Military Institute founded Nov 11, 1839). Of these, the one that I celebrated today was St. Martin's Day because my son goes to the evangelischer Kindergarten and every year they do a parade with lanterns around the village followed by a brief service in the chapel. Interestingly enough, St Martin was a roman soldier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingtiger Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 Joe Kernin @ CNBC put up a little poem on the web site as a Veterans day tribute. http://www.cnbc.com/commentary/commentary_full_story_stocks.asp?StoryID=8991#poem Richard Kalajian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Captain Foobar Posted November 12, 1999 Share Posted November 12, 1999 I feel that there MUST be truly a right side and a wrong side in a conflict, for there to be ANY consolation taken in the deaths of the participants. It may be impossible to determine unanimously who was "in the right", but to view world conflicts simply as things that happen, with no right or wrong being fought over, is to accept that wars are a genocide against citizens imposed upon us by our leaders. I'm not trying to go on a philosophical tirade, but what good is dying for your country, just out of obedience to your government? My loyalties are to my God, family, and my friends. If my goverment is not acting EXPRESSLY in the protection of these things that I value, then it is a crime to go to war. And what's so strange is that I love wargames at the same time. I must be a schizophrenic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 12, 1999 Share Posted November 12, 1999 In my opinion the VAST majority of wars are just about resource rights or diverting public attention. There's no great rightness in war. All that matters to most leaders of a warring country is using propaganda to whip up their people to fight. e.g. the "raping of the Belgian nuns by German soldiers" story in WW1 (which was fals) and multiple other things have been used to motivate troops. In war there is suffering, pain and death., Comradeship and acts of bravery may abound too but I think that trying to label sides as good and bad is such an oversimplification when applied to wars as to be wrong. In the Iran Iraq war Saddam was good cause he was facing Iran. When he bombed the Kurds and gassed them he "got a little carried away" but we still sent him all the weapons he wanted. When he invaded Kuwait he constituted a threat because of the % of oil he controlled. Kuwait ran a wonderful propaganda cvampaign with all its talk about babies taken out of incubators etc (this story was delivered by the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the UN who hadn;t even BEEN in Kuwait but was simply given a script to learn for the cameras). The Kurds are GOOD in Iraq cause they give Saddam some internal problems which keep him occupied BUT in Turkey they are BAD and the west looks askance while Turkey kills thousands of them and breaks all the international human rights laws etc All this "right and wrong" in war is pretty much nonsence IMO. It's a dirty, nasty business and usually neither side is fighting for a "good" cause. The motives for entering a war are usually murky. THAT is why I focus on the individual tragedies and not some phantom geopolitical "good". Check out the statistics on the number of Kosovar Albanians who have been dug out of "mass graves".. A good portion of those dug up can be shown to have been killed by Allied bombs while only slightly more were possibly killed by the Serbs.. They're talking about finding, at most, 2000 bodies in total when earlier they were on about 100,000 etc and this was their "justification" for going in. I'll stop there. I'm with Chomsky when it comes to media manipulation. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neutral Party Posted November 12, 1999 Share Posted November 12, 1999 The thing about remembrance in general and Remembrance Day in particular is that you’ve got to be alive to remember. Dead soldiers don’t remember, but their comrades who survived do. So of course do their mothers and fathers, brothers and sister, sons and daughters. When the war is over and the exhortations to patriotism and heroism fade, the politicians move on to other things. Unfortunately it is not so easy for the victims - they have to pick up the pieces. How do men, some barely boys, who’ve seen the horror of war readjust to “normal life”. Some can’t. From what inner depths do shattered families find the strength to go on. This began as a day of contemplation and grief for those left behind after the butchery of their loved ones by old men with mustaches larger than their brains. I still get so f*****g angry when I see the “Earl Haig” poppy appeal (a British thing) - one of the biggest butchers of the bloody lot. Maybe we should take the advice of W.Owen and endeavor to “not repeat with such a noble zest, to young boys ardent for some desperate glory, The old lie: Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori.” Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Captain Foobar Posted November 12, 1999 Share Posted November 12, 1999 well, fionn, in response to your post, There is no "goodness" that I can find in war. And it is with this conclusion that I would define the "state" as being the enemy. My original point was to the fact that patriotism is IMHO a tool of the state, and not to be encouraged. Veterans day/ Rememberance Day seems to be a glorification of dying for the state. Veterans are the true victims, living and dead. Instead of reflecting on their sacrifice in a sentimental way, we should reflect on the emptiness of that sacrifice they were forced to make. Oil in the machine..Here ends my rant. Nihilistically yours, Captain Foobar DESTROY. SURVIVE. REBUILD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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