Glubokii Boy Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Hello... Do you guys have any good tips how to make a platoon sized AI group move along a road without zig, zagging all over the place. I don't want them to advance in a single line but rather a little spread out. This is the set-up AI-order... The following AI orders looks like this... I tried to put them close together to try and help the AI to move to the closest new order location but the units picks their own actionsquare to move to and end up zig, zagging like this... Is there something i can do to avoid this ? Splitting the platoon up into several AI-groups is not an option with the scenario i'm working on now. There is simply not enough AI-groups to go around... Any help will be appriciated...Thanks ! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kohlenklau Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Did you try a solid rectangular block of yellow squares? My Soviet AI forces in Garden of the Iron Cross seemed to advance in leap frog manner. I did not notice any zig-zag. I always used solid blocks. Never tried just spread out separate yellow blocks for a platoon. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted June 22, 2014 Author Share Posted June 22, 2014 kohlenklau, i had a look at your scenario in the editor... I tried your suggestion with rectangular blocks. First try with several AI-orders close together along the road. Result...the germans are still zig,zagging. tried it with a single AI-order...like this The result was marginally better but still some zig, zagging across the road... Also tried this with the same result The single AI order with a rectangular box works the best so far but still not the way i want... Thanks for your help....I will try some other things and se how it works out... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kohlenklau Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 hmmm. Maybe I dashed my platoons up at first now that I think of it. I went to advance closer to the trenches and then finally to assault or max assault if I recall. OK. Maybe try orienting the rectangle so it's long length is parallel to the road? Versus a cross shape perpendicular to the road... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted June 22, 2014 Author Share Posted June 22, 2014 I tried a number of different set-ups but this will not work... I have found that i will need to use atleast 3 AI groups to get a platoon to advance the way i like (using the terrainfeatures in a good way and being able to support each other.) 2 squads in 1 AI-group 1 squad and the HQ in an other and a supporting HMG in the third. Using multiple AI-groups like this works very well but i'm running out of avaliable AI-groups very quickly doing this. A further incease in the number of avaliable AI-groups would be a nice improvment for the future... I have come to the conclusion that 16 AI-groups will not be enough for this scenario i'm working on...A scenario with an initial player attack objective followed by defencive orders... I have already spent 8 AI-groups on the first player attack part and 8 more will not be enough for the AI to mount an attack in several wawes like i had intended... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kohlenklau Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Here is a trick to try. Not sure if I saw it work as you might desire. Part of AI group "X" is on map and follows AI plan. At Time "T", a reinforcement "R" arrives at assigned location "Y" but is also part of AI group "X" and must catch up? Make sense? This might give some waves type effect. Or at least allow conservation of allocating your AI groups. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 TBH I think you are creating a rod for your own back here. The AI Planning tools, whilst good, don't create a 'human like' opponent nor do they recreate human like behaviors exactly. It also looks like you are trying to micromanage your AI Plan which is at best, tough to do, and at worse impossible. If you are creating a very small scenario then you might pull it off but just beware that trying to do what you are doing in a larger scenario will drive you daft! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 I fully endorse what George said. The bigger and more sweeping your orders, the more likely you are to get good behaviour. how to make a platoon sized AI group move along a road Regarding your specific problem, why do you want them to move along the road? Are they a) moving to contact conducting an assault, or c) just bimbling along to get somewhere they need to be with no likelihood of enemy fire The answer matters, since it will affect how you programme the AI. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted June 23, 2014 Author Share Posted June 23, 2014 hello, guys... TBH I think you are creating a rod for your own back here. It also looks like you are trying to micromanage your AI Plan which is at best, tough to do, and at worse impossible. I'm affraid you are right...To big scenario for this kind of micro-managing.... I guess i might have set my goal i bit to high with this scenario...(bad planning...In the furure i will have to make sure that i have enough AI-groups to be able to do what i intend and also plan for some more basic AI-moves...). That said... I don't think that the micro managing i had in mind would be all that complicated if i only had more AI groups avaliable. I have never had the intention for the AI to use an overly complicated plan for its attack...I just want to make sure that the AI troops advance using the cover that the terrain (fairly open terrain) provide and also deploy their supporting weapons in a decent way. My original plan for the AI attack looked like this: 1. A few on-map mortars (2-3) with good LOS without any AI-plans 2. First germans to arrive from the east edge of the map...A supplyplatoon, towing some heavy arty pices, arriving along the southern road. These trucks would be unavare off you precence in the village an simply drive west along the road to try and escape through the exit to the west. 3. After that 2 infantry platoons mounted in halftracks. 1 platoon arrives along the northern road and 1 platoon a few minutes later (maybe five) along the other road further to the south (same as arty-trucks). These troops would be avare off your precence and the halftracks would only advance a short distance before halting and dismounting the infantry platoons wich would advance towards the village on foot with the haltracks following a distance behind them to provide fire support. 4. Some minutes after (10) the infantry platoons arrive they both get acompanied by a Stug each arriving from the east edge to provide some HE fire support...maybe also 1 or 2 PzIVs. (giving the players AT-guns some targets). 5. After some additional time (??) a number of tanks (Pz IVs and 1 or 2 tigers) would arrive in the fields to the south (from the east edge) accompanied by an additional infantry platoon on foot that would attack towards the village through the woods to the south. (by this time the player would have recieved his armour reinforcements resulting in sort of an armour vs armour duell..). 6. And lastly a few (2) tanks would arrive along the road to the north or through the forrest gaps in the north a few minutes after the other tanks arrive... That was my original plan...(i guess it would be doable if i had not spent 8 AI groups on the german defence in the first part of the mission...) Regarding your specific problem, why do you want them to move along the road? Are they a) moving to contact conducting an assault, or c) just bimbling along to get somewhere they need to be with no likelihood of enemy fire The answer matters, since it will affect how you programme the AI. like i mentioned above...My initial plan was to have them arrive on the northern road from the east edge of the map in their haltracks. These troops would be informed off your precence in the village and the soldiers would therefore dismount from their halftracks and start to ADVANCE towards the village (maybe use QUICK for the first part). My reason for wanting them to advance along the road is that by doing so they would use the cover of the ditches and the elevated terrain on their right side. The terrain south of the road is quite open but there is a small rise in the field closer to the village wich i want one of the squads to use as a base of fire location. What i don't want them to do is to zigg,zagg across the open road while approaching like they do now... Maybe the best option (one that could work) would be to have them advance in a tighter group to start with and then have them spread out a bit more as they got closer to the village. I'm also considering removing the halftracks from the northern platoon and instead give them a HMG for support...(halftracks on both sides of the road would also zigg, zagg i'm affraid...) I will se if a will be able to remove some of the defencive AI groups and do some tweaking to the german attackpart of the scenario to be able to keep the AI groups within the limits. Maybe these compromises will be to big and ruin the original idea with this mission...If nothing else...The work on this scenario have been a learning experince... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Ok, well, you didn't really answer the question, so I'll make what suggestions I can. It seems you're asking quite a lot of the AI and your own design and narrative skills. As far as I can tell, you have got the Germans on the defensive initially, then transitioning to the attack as more and more (and more) reinforcements arrive. Why? Why have such a complex set up? You will find ... well, everything a lot easier if you start everything on map and roughly in the area where it's going to come in to contact. When you are designing a scenario that will only be played from one side, there is absolutely no need to have coherence in the movement of the AI side. If they aren't going to come under contact or be seen for several hundred metres, don't move them across that ground, just teleport them (at start or as reinforcements) to near the place they will first be in contact. That will simplify your job immensely. Also, have a single big idea in your head (e.g. "Germans attacking across open ground at dawn"), and subordinate everything to that idea. Avoid complex changes of stance (from attack to defence, or vice versa). They're hard to programme, and even harder to narrate convincingly in the briefing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted June 24, 2014 Author Share Posted June 24, 2014 JonS...Thanks for your assistance...I understand your confusion, sorry for the lack of information...My stupid mistake. I mixed things up a bit. I thought that i already had the overall description for the scenario mentioned at the top of this thread but that information is in an other thread... See here... http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=115760 And here is the WIP briefingtext from the scenario itself.... (the situation part of the briefing is not done yet). SITUATION: time: 04.15, june 27, 1944 MISSION Your main objective for this mornings attack will be to defeat the german troops defending Lepel. Taking possetion of this village is vital. At this location the two main roads leading west to Begoml and south west to Borisov meet. Using theese two major roads are the only option the germans have to be able to withdraw their forces from the frontline fast enough to avoid being surrounded by our main advance comming from the east. Gaining controll of this crossroad is your primary target. Ones you have established yourself in the village you are to set up a blocking possition to prevent the retreating german frontline troops, that are heading your way, to escape. Other blocking possitions will be set up by other units to the south and north or your location. If we do this right we will be able to prevent the entire german 4th army from retreating towards Minsk. To be able to handle any troops that might slip through your defensive line at Lepel you are adviced to also set up a number of secondary blocking possitions west and south of the village. These locations are marked on your map as Objectives Natalja and Anna. Deploy atleast some of your forces here but keep the bulk of your force in and around Lepel. FRIENDLY FORCES: Your regiment is almost at full strenth and the troops are of good spirit. During the night the regiment have been able to advance to its current location more or less unopposed. The only germans you have come across so far are some retreating infantry units that have surrendered after only a few shots have been fired. The terrain have been a far more difficult enemy then the german soldiers. Moving troops and equipment through this terrain have proven difficult. Especially at night. The tanks, from the 35th guard tank brigade and your heavy equipment have had the most difficulty and have fallen behind your more mobile cavalry units. The engineers are hard at work trying to get the armour moving forward but don't expect to se them for quite some time yet. Hopefully within the hour. The only troops at your dissposal at the start of the mission will be 1st squadron. Followed closely by 2nd- and 3rd squadrons. Your 4th squadron will be held in reserv for now. Due to difficulty of the terrain these squadrons will be lacking some of their support weapons to start with. The machinegun platoons are not at full strenth right now but the heavy equipment are moving your way and more machineguns will be arriving shortely followed by atleast on of your AT-gun platoons. Your squadrons organic SMG platoons have been assigned to assist the armour and will be arriving with the tanks as tankriders later on. Unfortunatelly you will have no artillery support. Atleast not to start with. Your mortar platoons are not far behind you but they are out of ammo. The supply trucks are having the same difficulty as the tanks negotiatiing this terrain. The engineers are working on it and more supply, including ammo will arrive later on. You might also se some additional sturmoviks overhead later in the morning. That all depends on how fast the rest of the 3rd guards mechanized corps are able to advance from the east. Thoose guys have been given priority to airsupport. ENEMY: This crossroad is located well behind the frontline. The enemy troops defending it will most likely be some second line infantry unit. Probably the from 201st security division. From our experience security troops have been well trained and are lead by competent officers but most of them lacks major combat experience. Apart from the airstrike just conducted agaist this location. These troops have not yet been subject to any friendly attacks. We can expect them to still be well organized and close to full strenth. A possition like this will most likely be defended by a reinforced company. Supported by HMGs and anti-tank guns. The smoke from a number of burning veichles can be seen from your possition. We have not been able to contact the attacking Sturmoviks to confirm what kind of targets those are. A strong pressence of enemy armour is however unlikely. halftracks and perhaps one or two assultguns might have been assigned to support this possition. Nothing more. Take advantage of this. When the retreating german frontline forces reach this location they will most certanly be supported by a number of tanks. Expext both medium Pz IVs, assultguns as well as some heavy Tigers. The first german infantry units that are likely to reach you location will be from the german IV corps. These are very well trained units. Be prepared for this. PLAN: At the start of this mission you will only have very limited forces at your disposal. You have to decide wheter to split them up to be able to reconoiter a larger area or to keep them together and concentrate on a single avenue of approach. Withing 15 minutes you will have in total 3 squadrons to command. The regiments 4th squadron will be held in reserv for now. The lack of artillery support will be a problem. You will have to rely on your machineguns to provide suppresive fire. As mentioned earlier. You have 3 main objectives to secure. Marked on the map as follows, Crossroad, objective Anna, objective Natalia. Your time for securing these will be limited. You'd better be in possition in the village and have your AT-guns deployed and ready to go once the enemy frontline troops reaches this area. When deploying your AT-guns...Consider that you might face both medium tanks, panzer IVs,assultguns as well as heavy tigers. Against the panzer IVs an AT-gun in a forward slope possition would probaly be a good idea to be able to take it out from long range. But against a Tiger. A forward slope AT-gun might not be the best idea. A reverse slope ambush possition might work better. You only have 4 AT-guns. Deploy them visely... Friendly armour are on the way. 2 platoons of T34 tanks assisted by the regiments SMG platoons are making their way to you as fast as they can. The difficult terrain is making their progress slow though. Their ETA at this location is a bit unclear...Probably within the hour. Also marked on your map are the 2 largest farms in this area. The Makarov farm and the Krutov farm. These heavy 2 story buildings will provide you with good defensive possitions. These possitions will most likely be occupied by enemy troops. Root them out and take possetion of these buildings. You will not need to be to conservative with your ammo expendatiure. A number of supplytrucks are on their way here. They should arrive in no more then 30 minutes...hopefully ! NOTES: We have clear skies this morning and we expext this to continue thoughout the day. There is a cold, strong wind blowing from the west. The last week have seen some heavy rain. The ground is still damp and at locations very muddy. Commander, we have full confidence in you that this mission will meet with complete succes... Now, get your troops moving ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Maybe this will explain my original idea a bit better... Your suggestion with having the enemy not move to a location but rather start at- or arrive at as reinforcements at that spot is a good one and something a have considered. The problem with this scenario is that the players defensive location (the village) is located ontop of a ridge. The player will have LOS quite deep into the enemys side of the map (east) but the terrain around the road will provide some cover to the advancing troops and limit the friendly LOF. Atleast that has been my intension... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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