Panther Armor Quality

[civdiv]

Figured I'd start a new thread specific to this topic, and I am interested in what the gang says about this.

Been reading 'Panther, Germany's Quest For Combat Dominance' by Michael and Gladys Green. About halfway through the book (I cannot give you a page number since I am reading it on my Kindle) it mentions rumors of the lowering of the quality of Panther armor as the war progressed. It then goes on to say that these rumors are based on a 12th Army test against 3 captured/abandoned Pz V Ausf A tanks conducted beginning 19 Aug 1944 in Isigny, France. It quotes the original test;

'Wide variation was found in the quality plate on the three tanks. Tank No. 2 (hereafter referred to as 'best plate') sustained 30 hits as ranges from 600 to 200 yards without cracking. Tanks 1 and 3 (hereafter referred to as 'average plate') cracked after relatively few hits.'

Then the Greens go on to say;

'Researcher Carey Erickson performed a detailed analysis on the original test photographs supplied with the Isigny report. He concluded that the Panther Ausf. A tank labelled as No 1 and listed as having only average plate had in fact face-hardened glacis plate. This can be observed by the characteristic flaking that occurs only when face-hardened armor is penetrated by an AP projectile. Erickson explains that encountering a face-hardened glacis plate on a Panther Ausf A tank was not impossible because it could have come from leftover stocks to meet production quotas as German tank production was under greater and greater pressure to put weapons in thew hands of the Panzer Divisions by 1944.

Erickson also notes that it took nine hits into the hard outer surface of the face-hardened armored Panther tank labeled No 1 to make it susceptible to penetration. Pictorial evidence also shows that the Panther tank labeled No 3 and described as having an average plate had significant prior battle damage with extensive cracking across the glacis plate. This damage should have excluded tank No 3 from even being part of the testing process. Erickson makes the valid point that the Panther tank Labeled No 2 with the best plate reflected the true quality of Panther glacis plates for most of World War II and not the face-hardened armored Panther tank or the battle damaged example used at Isigny. Erickson is not the only one who believes that Panther armor remained free of serious defects for the duration of the war in Europe. Jentz and Doyle stated in their book Germany's Tiger Tanks VK45.02 to Tiger IIL Design, Production, and Modifications that 'There is no proof that substandard German armor plate was used during the last years of the war. All original documents confirm compliance with standard specifications throughout the war.'

[Vanir Ausf B]

I've never been able to find Erickson's paper on the internet, unfortunately.

[Duckman]

I dunno about the methodology here. There's nothing wrong with using pictorial evidence, but Soviet lab and firing tests did show quality problems:

During lab tests of the "Tiger-B" tank's armor, conducted at TsNII-48, it was noted that there had been an "evident gradual decline in the quantity of molybdenum (M) in the German T-VI [Tiger I] and T-V [Panther] tanks, and a complete absence in the T-VIB. The reason for replacing one element (M) with another (V, vanadium) must obviously be sought in the exhaustion of their on-hand reserves and the loss of those bases supplying Germany with molybdenum. Low malleability appears to be characteristic of the "Tiger-B's" armor.

Link: http://english.battlefield.ru/was-the-tiger-really-king.html

Admittedly this was on the Tiger II, but if they were showing defects already by mid-44 I fail to see how the quality of the Panther's armour plate would be problem free given that it was produced in much bigger qualities and right until the end of the war.

It is of course possible that the Germans kept special reserves of high quality steel and used it for the glacis and perhaps other especially exposed areas, but we'd need more evidence on this and it again seems unlikely given the scale and decentralized nature of late war Panther production. An interesting subject, nonetheless.

[JonS]

(I cannot give you a page number since I am reading it on my Kindle)

Is that normal for most books? I'm toying with getting an e-reader, but if it's no good for research then it's not a lot of use to me.

'There is no proof that substandard German armor plate was used during the last years of the war. All original documents confirm compliance with standard specifications throughout the war.'

This is getting dangerously close to proving a negative, but I'm a bit leery of putting too much weight on late-war manufacturing documentation that basically says "Yes boss, no problems at all! Everything is exactly the way it's supposed to be!"

[sburke]

Is that normal for most books? I'm toying with getting an e-reader, but if it's no good for research then it's not a lot of use to me.

This is getting dangerously close to proving a negative, but I'm a bit leery of putting too much weight on late-war manufacturing documentation that basically says "Yes boss, no problems at all! Everything is exactly the way it's supposed to be!"

It varies a little bit, but generally the kindle uses percentages and locations. It can be a little annoying when you aren't used to it, but once you figure it out it isn't bad. Bookmarking also makes things a lot easier.

I have gotten completely addicted to mine. Carrying around a few hundred books at a time and being able to access them from any PC if needed is just too cool. Saves on bookshelf space too.The only time it isn't as useful is books with illustrations, pics and maps. Those I reserve to buy physical copies.

[Destraex1]

I have my kindle in front of me.

Ii press menu. And it shows me the page number.

Not all books show page numbers depending on whether the publisher\author (not amazon) provided page numbers when formatting the ebook.

The other problem is that depending on the size you have your text set to, you may find you can press to the next screen five times and still be on the same page.

There is a function that allows you to add notes anywhere in the kindle boon and even publish them however.

This page number problem is not unique to kindle but to all ebook readers.

They rely on literal locations to find things rather than page and paragraph systems.

You would be siting locations rather than pages. Locations would work perhaps across all ebook reader platforms? I have however not checked this.

Locations are shown at the bottom of every ebook no matter the format because i would say that locations are based on word counts rather than relying on pages.

[Amizaur]

I played a bit with test range, using Panther A as targets.

I checked spread pattern of a Tiger E from 1000m. When it started to shoot HE at the Panther, it turned out that 8,8cm HE is able to:

sometimes (rarely) penetrate front upper hull of Panther A mid (I got penetrations at the MG ball and at driver visor)

- sometimes (two penetrations out of several hits) it penetrates penetrate 100mm front turret armor of Panther A mid (one partial penetration and one full penetration that killed the Panther).

So the bug (?) with strange HE penetrations is not limited to 85mm HE, same is with 8,8cm HE.

I'd like to remind that 85mm HE was able to accidentally penetrate Panther A mid front upper plate hitting it's center - and not only possibly weaker areas like machinegun mount or driver's visor. There is definitely some problem with HE penetrations.

I didn't notice any penetrations of Panther front hull (any plate) by Panter's 7,5cm HE shells. Maybe it's not bugged or maybe calibre is too small so penetration not enough.

***

[Vanir Ausf B]

I've yet to finish my testing, but I have so far had 2 penetrations out of 66 HE hits on the Panther A, one on the lower front hull and the other on the front turret. Neither of those plates has any ports or other apparent weak spots.

The rule of thumb for HE is that it will penetrate about 1/2 of the shell diameter in equivalent thickness of RHA at 0°.

[Amizaur]

The front turret armor penetration by 8,8cm HE from Tiger I.

Sorry for small screenshots, photobucket is not good for that... (it resizes the pictures to 1024x).