Tiger I able to penetrate T-34 front upper hull from over 2000m

[bruhntasaur]

Here's a link that explodes-convincingly- the myth of the T-34/76 as a revolutionary, war winning tank. The 34/85 was a significant upgrade but even that vehicle is overrated. Long, but worth the read.

http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.com/2012/07/wwii-myths-t-34-best-tank-of-war.html

Conclusion:

The T-34 is the victim of Soviet and German wartime propaganda. The Russians had every reason to build it up as the best tank of WWII. The Germans also overstated its performance in order to explain their defeats.

If the T-34 was as good as propaganda made it out to be then it should have led to great Soviet victories in 1941-42. Instead what we see in that period is the poor performance of Soviet armored formations. In 1943-45 the T-34 was becoming outdated as the Germans used updated versions of the Pz IV and Stug III equipped with the powerful Kwk 40 75mm gun and of course they introduced the Tiger and Panther.

The ‘best tank of WWII’ suffered horrific losses against those tanks and even the updated version T-34/85 could not bridge the gap.

Once again, when you're talking about whether a tank is influential or not, it's the design that matters, not the actual battlefield usage.

The exact combination of protection, mobility and firepower was unheard of in 1940 and it's successful overall design, despite its weaknesses, showed the way in which all the subsequent tank designs had to go.

[Amizaur]

T-34 - a T-34/85 for example - with all it's drawbcks, had one VERY important advantage. While being comparable to German PzIV and Panthers (in some regards not much worse, in some other - even better), it was very simple construction that could be produced quickly, in large quantities in simple factories by ordinary workers from simple materials. And this was the advantage that "won the war" (it's tank-related part).

If it was much worse than German tanks, this wouldn't work. But it was at least comparable (with a competent crew - which is another story), and yet much "cheaper".

What would you chose, going to a war - 3 Panthers or 12 T-34/85s or 12 Shermans ?

[RMC]

Here's a link that explodes-convincingly- the myth of the T-34/76 as a revolutionary, war winning tank. ...

http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.com/2012/07/wwii-myths-t-34-best-tank-of-war.html

Interesting link. Thanks for posting. I especially liked the cross-country stability chart because it reinforces something I saw in a TV show (on youtube) about restoring a Panther. One of the collectors/restorers said that whereas the US was working on stabilizing the gun to allow firing on the move the Germans were trying to stabilize the entire tank with the smooth-riding Panther suspension.

[c3k]

What would you chose, going to a war - 3 Panthers or 12 T-34/85s or 12 Shermans ?

Well, if I had to be in one of those tanks and fight from it, that would be different than if I had to choose which group to command!

In the time period in which the Panther and T34/85 fought one another, a gross generalization would be that the Soviets were advancing and kept the battlefield. Meaning, a broken down T34 would be recovered (not that the Soviets were famously known for that!), but, more importantly, any damaged Panther could no longer be recovered and repaired. This would drive up the German losses. (Drivetrain issues had been pretty much resolved. Fuel was critical. Minor battle damage which could be repaired was a moot point if the tank was left behind during a retreat.)

For a gross approximation of effectiveness, look at the production numbers and the surviving tanks at the end of the war.

The Soviets produced and fielded around 30,000 T34/85's during WWII. (The numbers quoted vary quite a bit. 30k is the upper bound. 22k would be the extreme lower.)

The Germans produced and fielded about 6,500 Panthers. (Upper bound. 6k would be lower.)

I'd have to go through every formation's strength returns to come up with a number of surviving tanks. No thank you... If you count up the number of Soviet tank brigades left on the roster (and multiply by some sort of reduction % to come up with actual strength vs. paper strength), you can get an idea of numbers. For the Germans, I'd give 'em half a dozen Panthers left for every Panzer division they had listed at the end.

That should give a very rough idea of relative effectiveness.

[Holien]

Sorry to ask a tangent question, but seems like as good a place as any...

Question to the Grogs...

Two urgent questions (well for my Pixel Truppen)

Panther Armour Front on - What range does it become more than likely for 85mm gun to go through it?

What range can MKIV kill a T34/85 at front on.

My google fuu has failed and I stumbled on those who would know...

Thxs in advance....

[db_zero]

Overrated or not the T-34 was a tank the average Russian could operate as well as be maintained in the field. My understanding is the German tanks like the Panther and Tiger required quite a bit of training time for the crews to become effective and you needed a fairly high level of technical proficiency and maintenence was always a challenge.

If the Soviets were given 5000 Panthers or Tigers I'm not sure they would have been able to use them.

The same sort of thing may be going on to this day. There is a reason why AKs are so popular in many parts of the world.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Panther Armour Front on - What range does it become more than likely for 85mm gun to go through it?

That's impossible to answer, since the 85 can penetrate the turret and lower hull much easier than the upper hull, but the upper hull is the most likely area to be hit... unless the Panther is hull down.

What range can MKIV kill a T34/85 at front on.

At least 1 km, maybe out to 1.6 km depending on if it hits the turret or hull.

[db_zero]

One of my reference books mentions the Panthers hatch over the driver and radio operators compartment was very difficult to operate and it was common to just leave them open during combat.

Not modeled in CM though

[Holien]

That's impossible to answer, since the 85 can penetrate the turret and lower hull much easier than the upper hull, but the upper hull is the most likely area to be hit... unless the Panther is hull down.

At least 1 km, maybe out to 1.6 km depending on if it hits the turret or hull.

Thanks for the quick response.

So I will rephrase my question re Panthers...

At what range would you engage a Panther Front on with an 85mm?

My hits so far have ping'd but lets see if I get lucky...

Ages since I have played Russian front and never an area where I had previous knowledge so I am re-learning what kills what at what range...

[Vanir Ausf B]

At what range would you engage a Panther Front on with an 85mm?

I wouldn't, if I could avoid it. You will have a moderate chance of killing it under 500 meters, gradually decreasing from there out to about 1000 meters or a little further. But at any range it can kill you more easily.

[db_zero]

Ill have to take a look later but I have a h2h where I engaged a Panther at dang close range and the 85mm bounced off the Panthers front hide. The Panther then destroyed my T-34.

I also got some penetrating hits on the side of Panthers at close range with 45mm AT guns. Didn't seem to phase them although it may have injured or killed a crewman.

Tough beast those Panthers.

[Amizaur]

From my recent test of T-34/85 M1943 vs armor of Panther A mid (about 100 hits so far at ranges from 100m to 800m) it seems:

- the Panther front lower hull is vunerable (all clean penetrations) up to 600m and probably much further (I got no hits at longer ranges so far, can't tell)

- the Panther front upper hull is nearly immune vs 85mm AP M1943. For 70 hits counted at ranges from 100 to 700m there was only one single penetration. It happened at 600m.

- there were two hits at front turret, one Partial Pen. at 200m and one Spalling at 400m

- there were 4 hits at the mantlet (weapon mount). Two ricochets at 100m and 200m, and two penetrations at 400m and 800m.

Interesting - the first mantlet ricochet (at 100m) was a hit at the lower edge of the mantlet, and it ricochetted into the top hull (second hit decal generated there!). It didn't penetrate there and only "hit: weapon mount" txt was generated. I have a screenshot.

Summary: Panther A mid front upper hull seems to be quite immune to 85mm AP (at least from M1943 model), it ricochets happily 10-15 times in a row even from 100m, BUT there is random 1-2% chance for penetration up to at least 1000m and possibly further. It seems like when it happens, the armor resistance is heavily degraded (maybe even to 50%). I'm perfectly happy with this. The 1-2% of "weakpoint penetrations" may be tratet like hits on joints or edges of the plates - 85mm AP should easily penetrate if it hit the joint between lower and upper plate or at the edge of hull-machinegun port.

P.S. On the other hand, in another quick test the same Panther A mid front upper hull was very vunerable against 122m AP up to 1000m (and probably more). I would expect more randomness and good percent of ricochets at those ranges...

(Only AP ammo was used, I was not testing the (probably bogus) 85mm HE penetrations.)

[Vanir Ausf B]

Interesting - the first mantlet ricochet (at 100m) was a hit at the lower edge of the mantlet, and it ricochetted into the top hull (second hit decal generated there!). It didn't penetrate there and only "hit: weapon mount" txt was generated. I have a screenshot.

This is curious, since ricochets normally have their own hit text. But then again, I've never seen a ricochet onto the top hull that didn't penetrate. If non-penetrating ricochets are not generating the proper hit text that might explain their apparent extreme rarity. I would appreciate it if you would post the screenshot. A save game would be even better.

P.S. On the other hand, in another quick test the same Panther A mid front upper hull was very vunerable against 122m AP up to 1000m (and probably more). I would expect more randomness and good percent of ricochets at those ranges...

(Only AP ammo was used, I was not testing the (probably bogus) 85mm HE penetrations.)

It will actually penetrate most of the time out to at least 1500 meters. That is because it is APBC, which in reality was probably not available in 122mm prior to September '44.

[Amizaur]

The hit on lower edge of the mantlet, ricocheting into the top hull - note, that the ricochet was going to the left side, not in the line with the original projectile path. So there is some random vector of momentum added to ricochets, which happens to be lateral.

And this is interesting - serie of Panthers after being shot from 1000m by T-34/85s. We can see the spread pattern and where it's center lays:

[Amizaur]

[Amizaur]

All above pictures - results of T-34/85 M1943 firing against Panthers A mid from 1000m.

The pattern is true for sustained shooting, not for "first shot" accuracy which is much worse, so really any part of enemy tank can be hit with first shot (if it hits at all).

Intersting thing is, from 100m the spread pattern is even wider (no pictures unfortunately) so the game adds some additional spread to the aimpoint at close ranges, to avoid hitting always the same spot.

This way, hits like lower hull from 100m are possible.