Odd bunker crew behaviour

[rocketman]

Don't know if this should be in the tech forum, but here goes. In my current mission the crew of a MG-bunker bailed except for one man who is still in the bunker. He is down on the floor so I can't hit him through the slit or through the wall, but he can fire out of the bunker at my poor pixeltruppen.

Hey, that's not fair :mad:

I have a save if someone wants to take a look.

[TimoS.]

Have seen the same thing on that Mission where you have to take out that Infantry Guns with Band of Brother Style on the Landing Beaches. Same thing happened to me. They crawled out and killed a few Pixeltruppen and then i got them.

Other thing is Wooden Bunkers. You can easy take them out with Riflegrenades from any Direction 1 or 2 max and all are wounded. If you try Front Attack with a tank you just can pin/Panic/Rout them but they stay in the Bunker and keep firing with the MG. :mad:

[womble]

I played with my first concrete bunker the other day. It was "only" a shelter, but I was astonished to find that it could be destroyed by small arms fire. It did take one bazooka hit, but that didn't KO it; it withstood another 10-15 minutes of assault by .30-06 from nothing heavier than a BAR before becoming "Destroyed". There were also a startling number of "Penetration" hit texts, and I didn't see a single "Opening: Penetration" amongst them. I know the AP round for the Garand and its co-calibres could penetrate a few inches of reinforced concrete, but I didn't think purpose-built bunkers would be so vulnerable, and none of those "Penetration" hits actually hurt the guys manning the bunker (they only took cas from the zook hit).

[ScoutPL]

Perhaps this is an abstraction that the designers had to compromise on. Since in RL most concrete bunkers were reduced with direct fire from heavy guns, flamethrowers or demo charges and FT and DC aren't replicated or have this ability in game, they had to give your average rifle squad the ability to eventually get a destruction result.

[womble]

Perhaps this is an abstraction that the designers had to compromise on. Since in RL most concrete bunkers were reduced with direct fire from heavy guns, flamethrowers or demo charges and FT and DC aren't replicated or have this ability in game, they had to give your average rifle squad the ability to eventually get a destruction result.

I'd be surprised if that was the reasoning. Since FT and DC weren't routinely available to the "average rifle squad", there's no reason (if those are the only ways of reducing the fortification) to give the ARS the means to destroy the bunker at long range. BFC don't subscribe to the "just because it's a game we have to be fair" method of game design Having some sort of close assault mechanism whereby grenades get posted in through the gun slit, or some such, would be more along the lines of what I'd expect BFC to cater for (and I believe such action is modelled).

[ScoutPL]

Sure, I was offering FT and DC up as a possible reason since if you were going to attack a position known to have bunkers/trenchs those weapons were usually made available. And both weapon systems require you get within hand grenade range anyway.

I was just brainstorming possible reasons, since we all know the designers are infallible! ;-)

[Erwin]

One can easily KO a concrete bunker from the front with concentrated small-arms fire... I put several teams that also had LMG's in a building and they just poured on the fire. I think it took about 3-4 turns before the crew abandoned the bunker.

Seemed a bit too easy, actually. I was expecting to only suppress it so that the bazookas or demo charges could get close enuff to be used.

Will have to see if the same technique works elsewhere - like if one's units have poorer cover.

[womble]

One can easily KO a concrete bunker from the front with concentrated small-arms fire... I put several teams that also had LMG's in a building and they just poured on the fire. I think it took about 3-4 turns before the crew abandoned the bunker.

There's a distinction between forcing the occupants to abandon the bunker due to suppression and panic triggering the pTruppen's "preservation" algorithms, and actually destroying it.

Will have to see if the same technique works elsewhere - like if one's units have poorer cover.

In my situation, the assaulting troops had no cover, there were just more of them than I could suppress with the assets available, so they could aggregate some suppression on the bunker most of the time (the only time it got heavy enough to Pin the occupants was the turn the bazooka hit. The scenario started in the dark, which is the only way I can figure they got close enough to employ a bazooka. Though they were above average troops being observed by below average troops, so that could have been a reason they weren't spotted til 100m or so away.

[rocketman]

In my current mission the crew of a MG-bunker bailed except for one man who is still in the bunker. He is down on the floor so I can't hit him through the slit or through the wall, but he can fire out of the bunker at my poor pixeltruppen.

I few turns later, he ran out of the FRONT of the bunker, not through the open door in the back, through the wall and got promptly gunned down.

[TimoS.]

I hope they will fix this with Patch 3.0

I think its wrong if small caliber Tanks like Stuart or other Guns can Take an Enemy Bunker out at <500m Ranges within 2 Minutes Firing HE Shells at it, but they should do in more Turns and at Closer Range. A Few Shots through the Fireslit or some constant MG Fire on it should make the Crew rout and leave the Bunker. ATM you can make them Panic and they keep on Firing as if they would have good Morale.

And there should be diffrence with AP Shells hitting Wooden Bunker. ATM they behave almost similar to Concrete if you attack them with Tanks.

[Erwin]

Ah... wish I could remember if the bunker was actually KO'd or just abandoned. I tend to make no distinction since the effect is the same.

[womble]

A Few Shots through the Fireslit or some constant MG Fire on it should make the Crew rout and leave the Bunker. ATM you can make them Panic and they keep on Firing as if they would have good Morale.

That all depends on their soft factors. Sometimes they'll Panic and leave, sometimes they'll Panic and fire wildly and with abandon. Either way, it should take more than you suggest, or bunkers would never be a problem, and they were a big enough problem on occasion that valuable indirect fire assets were exposed to harm in order to neutralise them.

Ah... wish I could remember if the bunker was actually KO'd or just abandoned. I tend to make no distinction since the effect is the same.

Not really. If your troops just up and leave, they or others can reman the fortification, possibly. If it's destroyed, that's not the case. Then again, perhaps I'm mistaken and the only way to force troops out is to destroy their shelter.

[Erwin]

Let's not get pedantic here. What I was trying to say is that once a bunker is "neutralized" it's rarely (if ever) of any use to one's own side and I am not going to let it get reoccupied by the enemy, so it's "out of action" regardless whether destroyed or just unoccupied. If the issue is whether small arms can actually kill a bunker, I think that was the case. But, I am not 100% sure.

Actually, if it's a big deal for you I think I may have saved game from that mission I can check.

[womble]

It's not a big issue, because I know small arms can kill a bunker and I suspect they can be forced to abandon it, and if they can't, I don't really care much. That's what I posted to start with. And in the situation where I lost that bunker, if it had been merely abandoned, I'd've recrewed it had the Amis not surrendered when I pressed the BRB. So that's 100% of the times I've had a concrete bunker, it was still a potential asset if it was usable.

[TimoS.]

That all depends on their soft factors. Sometimes they'll Panic and leave, sometimes they'll Panic and fire wildly and with abandon. Either way, it should take more than you suggest, or bunkers would never be a problem, and they were a big enough problem on occasion that valuable indirect fire assets were exposed to harm in order to neutralise them.

And sometimes they dont leave at all. Err, almost always when you hit them with Tank HE Shells.