Sprint to exhaustion

[SlowMotion]

Now while playing MG module I've noticed something that looks like a tweak in game engine.

Happens like this:

I plan a movement command, like a long Move over a field. Move doesn't make infantry tired, so you can plot very long moves and save time. No need to plot it every turn.

Now if there is contact with enemy - I think enemy is firing nearby units - these movements are often converted to Move Fast commands *automatically*. So a 300m Move would become 300m Fast which tire an infantry unit totally.

I'd like to hear opinions whether this automatic MoveToFast change makes sense. It quickly changes your unit status to Tired which means unable to really move in several turns. Now because of this I cannot trust that units stay in fighting shape. I have to check their movements every turn to prevent them becoming exhausted.

Would it be better to maybe make a shorter spurt and then stop and seek cover? Player would have to decide what to do with the changed situation. Keep the units moving despite enemy or keep them in one place until enemy threat has weakened? I'm comparing this behaviour to what happens when you use Hunt command. When finding enemy a Hunting unit stops, instead of increasing movement speed.

[Holien]

Would it be better to maybe make a shorter spurt and then stop and seek cover? Player would have to decide what to do with the changed situation. Keep the units moving despite enemy or keep them in one place until enemy threat has weakened? I'm comparing this behaviour to what happens when you use Hunt command. When finding enemy a Hunting unit stops, instead of increasing movement speed.

I think this has been like this for quite awhile...

But IRL the unit would either drop immediately or depending on training might make a sprint to better cover....

I think if the game would randomise it to either short sprint or drop immediately / hide that would perhaps better reflect RL?

Either way the squad would not keep running until exhausted and perhaps a tweak if possible would stop this?

[SlowMotion]

Maybe this running would make sense if there was cover nearby, but now it feels quite strange. Especially if the enemy is in the very direction where the units are running.

[owenjones]

It has saved my neck in one of the Road to Nijmegen campaign missions a platoon or 2 of paratroopers landed in an open field (where else?) and I plotted Move commands for both platoons to the nearest cover.

Unknowingly they landed in LoS of a German mortar team who promptly starting a barrage. Thankfully my men changed to a Fast command automatically and only took a few casualties in what could've been a devastating situation.

I thought this was new behavior for MG as I hadn't seen it before but I was thankful either way.

I have also seen it operate in a detrimental fashion when men Moving across a field where ambushed by a MG towards their front, they changed to Fast and were nearly instantly pinned.

In the second example though I blame myself more than the TacAI. Maybe the men could have different reactions, change from Move to Fast OR hit the dirt depending on the proximity and visibility of the enemy?

[SlowMotion]

Yes, this behaviour can be useful in some cases.

But in some other situations it's not like what happens

-with other commands like Hunt

-real life. Think about MG suppressive fire, why was it used?

[MikeyD]

Its been awhile since I've been particularly concerned about exhausting my men. Maybe its because I had cut my teeth on CMSF - US troops modeled with 40 pounds of body armor in 100+ degree heat. Exhaustion was almost immediate no matter what you did. The pixeltruppen in CMBN are practically marathon runners in comparison.

[SlowMotion]

Having to check my plotted moves all the time is just player annoyance.

Especially in big scenarios that have LOTS of units. Like: Cut off at Koevering

When viewing turn's movie I can't check some area whether I see flashing icons - ie. units taking casualties - but I also need to check their path color. Make sure some unit hasn't started running again.

[Broadsword56]

I've seen the "sprint to exhaustion" too, and I agree that the game's individual soldier AI handles reactions to incoming fire a bit clumsily sometimes.

But...

Sound tactics can help prevent the type of situation described in the OP.

Setting the game to display all routes will show you who's suddenly got involuntary FAST orders.

The flashing icons during the replay are, as mentioned earlier, a good indication that you'd better check on that unit to see what happened.

Plotting a single long MOVE order over an open field when enemy contact is possible is inviting trouble unless it's in a very safe rear area. The HUNT order gives them better self-preservation reactions. So, use HUNT in alternating segments with MOVE along the route of advance. They won't get as tired as a pure HUNT move, and will advance faster. Then you get the best of both worlds. If you sent the men through a field on MOVE because you thought it was entirely safe and then got ambushed, then your opponent got the drop on you -- c'est la guerre.

The issue is that the affected units tend to run way farther than necessary and wear themselves out. But the choice of tactics can also affect the outcome when your unit suddenly takes unexpected fire.

If you send an entire squad across an open field on a long MOVE order, then there's a good chance an ambush will suppress or pin them all. Splitting squads and giving them some space intervals insures against this. Because if there's an ambush, there's now a chance that only one of your teams is actually fully in the killzone. The other teams can take cover, try to locate the source, and lay a base of fire to cover a withdrawal.

(Using these tactics means you'd also have triple the number of units and orders to manage in the game -- another reason to stay away from these big scenarios if you don't like the management.)

The problem, though, is that instead of dropping and waiting for the covering base of fire, the ambushed team will immediately start sprinting -- which we all know usually leads to grief when an unsuppressed MG has them zeroed.

Choosing to play monster scenarios and then saying you don't like to manage or check on your units makes no sense to me. Why not play something better suited to your style?

[SlowMotion]

Why play big battles? Basically I like large maps because there's more room for manouvring and things are not so dependent on single key unit. Like losing your only Panther means losing the whole scenario. Small maps more often progress to locked situations where neither side wants to move their units. When there's more room it's easier to avoid this.

I suppose mixing Hunt and Move could be one way of avoiding the sprint problem using current game engine. But plotting those alternative movements is a lot more work. And when enemy has surprised your unit I think dropping down immediately would increase unit survival more than doing it only when the next Hunt command begins. So having a smarter Move behaviour would be the best IMO.

The case where this problem is now happening is that most defense fire has been eliminated already and I'm moving more infantry forward. But while crossing those big fields they tend to get jumpy and run like Forrest Gump. In a way it's almost comical. What I've read about real battle the problem was that soldiers losing their nerve wanted to turn back and avoid fighting. But in my case they run faster toward enemy fire - Banzai!

[Broadsword56]

I wonder if the Allied and Axis map sides were set up correctly for the map you're playing on. I think in battles I've played, the FAST reactions to fire usually go in the direction of the friendly mapedge.

But maybe their first pixel-brain priority is to sprint out of the LOF and towards the nearest cover? That might explain why they sometimes would run the wrong way.

[SlowMotion]

It has seemed to me that when this change to Fast happens, they movement path isn't changed. Just speed. Maybe I need to pay more attention to exactly what happens there.

If it's like you guessed, run to nearest cover, the problem happens if even the nearest cover is far away and the enemy is already there :=)

[MikeyD]

If a unit's anxiety level spikes (listening the wiz of passing bullets overhead) they will break into a trot to get to their destination faster. A more direct threat and they're liable to hit the deck and cancel the movement order outright. I suppose it could be considered 'command error' to position a unit so far into the middle of open country and so far from their next way point that when they come under fire that seeking cover would exhaust them. There's an old Henny Youngman joke: "I went to my doctor, I raised my arm and said 'Doc, it hurts when I do this'. The doc replied 'Then don't DO that!'"

[SlowMotion]

In a way I agree, but BF has many times mentioned they want to develop the series to direction so that tactics that would work in real life would also work in the game. Now if real soldiers are trained to seek cover when being fired at, I can't think of many normal battle orders where basic soldier survival thinking would suddenly disappear from the trained minds and be replaced with something that would lead to bad results with high probability. IMO the way Hunt works is closer to reality.

[womble]

And then the AI has to deal with the tension between seeking safety and knowing that often the best way out of an ambush is to go through it. Going to ground in a killing zone is probably exactly what the enemy hope you'll do: if they can't shoot you, you just put your face in the dirt, allowing the ambushers to slink away to their next prepared defensive position.

[SlowMotion]

If going through is the way, why does Hunt stop unit movement? Yes, human wave tactics were used, especially in east front, but casualties were heavy. That's all I have to add.

[Broadsword56]

If it's a near ambush (say under 5 AS or under 40 yards) soldiers are trained to go through it. This disrupts the enemy's angles of fire and shortens the time in the killzone. Plus, staying put at that close a range means if you get pinned an assault is coming next.

If it's a far ambush, then the preferred tactic is to go out the way you came in. Base of fire, cover a withdrawal, etc.

[Holien]

From what I understand of WW2 combat the average soldier was not the trained men of today's armies and I would think they were more likely to pull back or hit the deck.

SlowMotion I think you have made some good points and if it can be tweaked then it would IMO be a small incremental improvement.

This game has developed and evolved through considered debate and idea generation from the fan base.

Discussions like this help that development path, even if the idea is rejected by some....