Use of enemy tank recognition tables.

[altipueri]

I've wondered if anybody has copies of the booklets used?

I came across the link below - I would post the content if I knew how to without getting all the adverts and other stuff.

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt09/recognition-leaflets.html

Now some people say the old CMx1 look up info on tanks armour etc. is unrealistic because troops didn't have such things. Well, I think they did.

I feel sure the UK and US must have had similar booklets.

I know anti-aircraft crews had plane recognition booklets because my mother was in charge of an anti aircraft gun in Belgium in 1944 and it didn't stop her hitting a Spitfire, much to the pilot's annoyance. (He survived and came round to complain).

[Michael Emrys]

Ta-dah!

Four-page leaflets showing the vulnerable parts of Allied tanks and the range at which they can be pierced by AT shells are furnished the crews of German antitank guns, according to an officer just returned from Italy. A translation of one of the leaflets is shown herewith (inside section only). Such leaflets are issued to 20-mm antitank gun crews (2-cm Kw. K. 30 u 38 Kraftwagonkanone 30 and 38). Similar leaflets are reported to be made up for the 37-mm, 50-mm and 75-mm guns, as each gun has a different range and penetration. The leaflets are reported to be part of the regular equipment of the gun and are stowed in the box that contains the sight. They permit quick and accurate identification of targets, and immediately available information as to the range at which the gun may open fire and at what parts of the tank, shots should be aimed.

The translation which follows refers specifically to combatting the American M-3 tank (General Lee). The German leaflet indicates that supplements are issued as more information becomes available.

* * *

[Recognition and Destruction Diagram: Translation of German Leaflet]

(TRANSLATION)

BASIC INSTRUCTIONS FOR FIRING AGAINST HEAVILY ARMORED TANKS

1. Keep calm and cool (Kaltblutig): let the tank come close enough for the vulnerable parts to become clearly seen in order to hit them with lethal effect.

2. Attack enemy armor from camouflaged positions and at unexpected angles. On open ground, fire against the enemy with your tank presenting an angle to his line of fire so as to afford yourself maximum protection.

3. Though careful aim should be taken prior to each shot, a high rate of fire must be maintained.

4. Watch closely the effect of your fire. Trust your weapon.

5. Strive for a favorable angle of impact. The optimum effect is obtained when the front or the side are in a direct line of fire; minimum effect at an oblique angle of fire (45 degrees). When firing against round or rounded turrets, always keep the target in a direct line of fire.

6. Selection of ammunition: With ordinary AP shells a penetrating hit can only be expected in exceptional cases at a very short range. For deterrent or damaging effect, see "high explosive" below. Solid shot must not be used at a distance of over 250 meters. Study the antitank range table carefully.

HE shells have:

- deterrent or damaging effect when they strike against the armament, the firing ports, vision slots and the range finder;

- lethal effect in the event of a lucky hit against the engine exhaust at the rear (incendiary effect);

7. The following is the key to this antitank range table

[Antitank Ammunition Effect]

To obtain results against the vulnerable sections of the tank, fire the type of rounds corresponding to the abbreviated designations on the illustration [see preceding page].

The distances in meters represent the maximum ranges at which complete armor penetration is assured.

For details regarding the effect of ammunition, etc., see the text of Army Manual (H.Dv.) 469/3b.

For some reason the illustration wouldn't copy.

Michael

[altipueri]

Thanks Michael. Pity the illustration didn't copy.

It would be great if somebody could find these leaflets for the bigger guns like the 50mm and 75 mm that most of us like to play with.

Also - any similar things for Allied tankers.

[YankeeDog]

I don't think anybody's disputing whether there were recognition tables/booklets. I have seen recognition publications for everything from aircraft to ships to tanks to mines and everything in-between, Allied and Axis.

I think what's more at issue is if and when these publications were actually carried and referred to in the heat of combat. They were certainly used as training aids, but I am skeptical that a tank or gun crew would often take the time to refer to a pamphlet whilst engaging. Maybe occasionally, and probably more likely in the case of e.g., a recon or OP unit whose job it is to identify rather than kill.

A heavy AA gun crew trying to ID a high-flying plane, or a lookout on ship trying to identify the silhouette of a ship on the horizon would probably more more likely to refer to a recognition booklet, but these are both out of CM context.

And considering how often AFVs were mid-IDed, even if crews did have the ID pamphlets, clearly they weren't all that helpful a lot of the time -- I've lost count of how many times I've read a first-person account where an Allied unit was supposedly fighting "Tigers" or "88s" when German records clearly show that they had none of these weapons in the vicinity.

[A Canadian Cat]

Try this - with images included...

Four-page leaflets showing the vulnerable parts of Allied tanks and the range at which they can be pierced by AT shells are furnished the crews of German antitank guns, according to an officer just returned from Italy. A translation of one of the leaflets is shown herewith (inside section only). Such leaflets are issued to 20-mm antitank gun crews (2-cm Kw. K. 30 u 38 Kraftwagonkanone 30 and 38). Similar leaflets are reported to be made up for the 37-mm, 50-mm and 75-mm guns, as each gun has a different range and penetration. The leaflets are reported to be part of the regular equipment of the gun and are stowed in the box that contains the sight. They permit quick and accurate identification of targets, and immediately available information as to the range at which the gun may open fire and at what parts of the tank, shots should be aimed.

The translation which follows refers specifically to combatting the American M-3 tank (General Lee). The German leaflet indicates that supplements are issued as more information becomes available.

* * *

[Recognition and Destruction Diagram: Translation of German Leaflet]

(TRANSLATION)

BASIC INSTRUCTIONS FOR FIRING AGAINST HEAVILY ARMORED TANKS

1. Keep calm and cool (Kaltblutig): let the tank come close enough for the vulnerable parts to become clearly seen in order to hit them with lethal effect.

2. Attack enemy armor from camouflaged positions and at unexpected angles. On open ground, fire against the enemy with your tank presenting an angle to his line of fire so as to afford yourself maximum protection.

3. Though careful aim should be taken prior to each shot, a high rate of fire must be maintained.

4. Watch closely the effect of your fire. Trust your weapon.

5. Strive for a favorable angle of impact. The optimum effect is obtained when the front or the side are in a direct line of fire; minimum effect at an oblique angle of fire (45 degrees). When firing against round or rounded turrets, always keep the target in a direct line of fire.

6. Selection of ammunition: With ordinary AP shells a penetrating hit can only be expected in exceptional cases at a very short range. For deterrent or damaging effect, see "high explosive" below. Solid shot must not be used at a distance of over 250 meters. Study the antitank range table carefully.

HE shells have:

- deterrent or damaging effect when they strike against the armament, the firing ports, vision slots and the range finder;

- lethal effect in the event of a lucky hit against the engine exhaust at the rear (incendiary effect);

7. The following is the key to this antitank range table

[Antitank Ammunition Effect]

To obtain results against the vulnerable sections of the tank, fire the type of rounds corresponding to the abbreviated designations on the illustration [see preceding page].

The distances in meters represent the maximum ranges at which complete armor penetration is assured.

For details regarding the effect of ammunition, etc., see the text of Army Manual (H.Dv.) 469/3b.

[Battlefront.com]

What YankeeDog said.

Added to this is the fact that the gunner often didn't know exactly what he was shooting at. I have a memoir of a tank gunner on a Super Pershing who was credited with the one and only King Tiger kill from a Pershing. He said he saw something moving around on the German's side of the front, aimed for center mass, fired, and saw that he hit it. Not until after the battle did word filter back that he had knocked out a King Tiger. Fat load of good a recognition table did for him

In the heat of combat you want quick and dirty rules of thumb that are usually effective in most circumstances. This is the cornerstone of all military training, no matter what is being talked about. Because it's better to have soldiers trained to act quickly on vague information than to expect your soldiers to have the time to do sophisticated decision making based on the presumption of adequate information.

Obviously the more technical a particular duty is, and the more time one has to execute it, the more you want to move away from rules of thumb. For example, a mortar team should not be guessing where their rounds will land as a rule. They should be doing the math. But if there's no time or conditions to use math properly, then they need to have rules of thumb in order to still have a chance of being effective.

Steve

[altipueri]

Well the translation thing above says it was kept in the box with the gunsight so I guess the crew could sit around ticking off their kills "Lee, Sherman, Matilda, Crusader .......hey guys only two more and we've got enough kills on the card to win us a 24 hour pass."

[altipueri]

Possible anti-tank gun crew scenario - best done with a Birmingham accent if you are British.

Hey. Brian. There's a tank coming down the road.

What sort of tank?

I don't know. A big one.

They're all big. Quick. Look it up in the book.

I haven't got the book. I gave it to you.

No you didn't.

Yes I did.

No you didn't.

I distinctly remember giving it to you straight after you finished your cup of tea this morning. So there.

It's getting closer.

What should I do?

Shoot it.

What do you mean shoot it? It's not a bloody dog you know.

What if we don't kill it. It'll be really annoyed then.

Well, the book says - if you can't kill it with solid shot, fire HE. That should at least give him a headache.

[Wodin]

^best said in posh Officer Queens English..

[Michael Emrys]

In the heat of combat you want quick and dirty rules of thumb that are usually effective in most circumstances. This is the cornerstone of all military training, no matter what is being talked about. Because it's better to have soldiers trained to act quickly on vague information than to expect your soldiers to have the time to do sophisticated decision making based on the presumption of adequate information.

This is pretty much how I've always played the game, and all I ask of the game is that my rules of thumb should in fact work most of the time.

Michael

[altipueri]

I agree. As long as what happens in the game is approximately what you feel would have happened then that's good.

[DavidFields]

I agree. As long as what happens in the game is approximately what you feel would have happened then that's good.

Mostly for fun, I will disagree.

The type that plays this simulation is likely very data oriented. CM bends realism, especially with the promptness orders are transmitted and understood. The armor stuff, understanding it in more detail, like CM1, may not be completely realistic, but I find it fun.

I like CM2--so not a major criticism, just an opinion.

Oh, but I do agree, altipueri, "feel" is important. And I think CM2 is getting progressively better with that.

[Michael Emrys]

Mostly for fun, I will disagree.

Oh darn. And here I was thinking we were getting a quorum together.

Michael