251/21 Questions (Grogs and/or Webwing)

[Rastamon]

Really looking forward to getting my hands on the 251/17 and 251/21.

In reviewing the MG manual I noticed that the 251/21 only has space for 4 crew and no passengers. I've read accounts of both 251/21 versions (151 and 20mm) being used as platoon leader vehicles in armored panzergrenadier battalions as well as armored pioneer companies. I have also seen references to them carrying the HMG teams in heavy weapon platoons.

The weapon was manually operated so a driver and one crew should be enough. The other 4+ seats could be passengers? Thoughts?

[GhostRider3/3]

http://www.panzertracts.com/PZorder.htm this site has some great books, could find what your looking for here. the books are about 25.00 each.

[phil stanbridge]

Just put it this way. They are very vulnerable to small arms so you wouldn't want them that close to the enemy. But with LOS at great distance, they are incredible.

[ASL Veteran]

As far as the Panzer Brigades go, per TO&E the 251/21 populates distinct platoons that are only composed of other 251/21s. Six to a platoon. So there would be no reason to have any passenger capability for those vehicles since there are no passengers to carry per the TO&E. As far as other uses in other formations - I don't know, but from what I can tell they were typically used in distinct platoons of six in every formation they were in. I don't know anything about the 251/17 or how it was used.

[Rastamon]

@ Phil – That explains why the majority of 251/21 photos (not many available) I have seen are complete wrecks.

@ ASL Veteran – Thanks for the information. I did some more digging and found the original TO&E docs for the six vehicle platoons in some of the panzer brigade grenadier companies.

I also found the TO&Es showing the 251/17 as the platoon leader vehicle and HMG carrier (Heavy weapons platoon) in the armored grenadier companies. Armored engineers also used them as the platoon leader vehicle.

It looks like as the panzer divisions received 251/21 deliveries (November 44 and later) they used them in place of the 17s (why have one barrel when you can have three instead). So the 21s did carry the platoon leader and HMG teams as passengers. Since the vehicle layout was the same as that used in the Panzer Brigade they should have some passenger capacity. Yes?

I’m happy to supply the supporting documentation I found (original Kriegsstärkenachweisung (KStN) and others). Not sure who on the dev team makes the call on the vehicle details (post MG release of course).

[ASL Veteran]

@ Phil – That explains why the majority of 251/21 photos (not many available) I have seen are complete wrecks.

@ ASL Veteran – Thanks for the information. I did some more digging and found the original TO&E docs for the six vehicle platoons in some of the panzer brigade grenadier companies.

I also found the TO&Es showing the 251/17 as the platoon leader vehicle and HMG carrier (Heavy weapons platoon) in the armored grenadier companies. Armored engineers also used them as the platoon leader vehicle.

It looks like as the panzer divisions received 251/21 deliveries (November 44 and later) they used them in place of the 17s (why have one barrel when you can have three instead). So the 21s did carry the platoon leader and HMG teams as passengers. Since the vehicle layout was the same as that used in the Panzer Brigade they should have some passenger capacity. Yes?

I’m happy to supply the supporting documentation I found (original Kriegsstärkenachweisung (KStN) and others). Not sure who on the dev team makes the call on the vehicle details (post MG release of course).

They may possibly have a passenger capacity in the game - I'm not sure. However, they are primarily a FLAK vehicle not an APC. Also keep in mind that the only formation in MG that has them is the Panzer Brigade so any references to Panzer Divisions doesn't apply to this module. If the ones in game have a passenger capacity then I suppose you could theoretically purchase a 251/21 for a QB and then separately purchase an HMG team and maybe combine them, but they won't come in the same formation. I think an HMG team in game has a five man crew anyway so they probably wouldn't fit even then.

You may possibly see the troop combinations you are hoping to see in a later game or module but I don't think you will see those combinations in this particular module. At least I haven't noticed it, but then it wasn't an issue I was really looking at anyway. Who knows, maybe its all in there already and I just didn't notice it?

[JasonC]

A few points about the 251/21 - the basic issues were (1) by mid 1944 the 37mm PAK was hopeless for any actual PAK fighting, there were basically no tanks around that it could actually kill; (2) The Luftwaffe had more autocannons than it could use, especially lighter varieties as they upgunned to 30mm wherever possible; (3) especially in the west, by mid 1944 the enemy air threat was extreme and transport of the mobile divisions was its best tactical target, bar none. So they needed a lot more AA etc. The 251/21 is basically 3 Luftwaffe air to air cannons on a naval mount.

Their first heavy use appears to have been in the Panzer brigades that formed in August and met the Allies at the westwall. I have seen reports of single panzer brigades with up to 42 of the things. Needless to say the panzer brigades themselves had a rather checkered operational history, being committed piecemeal in poor operational situations for it while green etc. I doubt the extra Flak power went very far if a whole group of P-47s decided to pick on that particular panzer brigade, but better than nothing no doubt. They were themselves priority targets for allied tac air, and vulnerable to all their weapons.

Their main role was in platoons of 6 vehicles in the heavy company, alongside SPW 251/9s for artillery support and SPW 251/2s as mortar firepower - they could do the same as FLAK, grouped or more often allocated in pairs to this or that Panzergrenadier company. You might find singles as command vehicles in addition, though radio vehicles (251/3s) were likely better at that role and they were trying to field more of those around the same time. As mentioned above, some units were flooded with the things and undoubtedly used them to escort full tank formations as an additional use.

As for the role of extra crew, they chewed through a lot of ammo when actually firing, which came in 250 round crates. You needed an ammo operation to keep them running. It might also help to have a spotter / gun commander besides the actual gunner, to scan for the next target and allocate the fire etc. Those principles apply to any heavy machinegun and go double for types with bulky ammo and high rates of fire. One gunner may be enough to pull the trigger, but it takes a lot more than that to keep the thing running in practice...

[YankeeDog]

Yeah... JasonC hits the nail on the head. The full-complement crew of a multi-barrel autocannon system such as the 3 x MG151 mount on the 251/21 is most definitely not just 1 x gunner. A single gunner can certainly pull the trigger and send rounds downrange if the weapon is already locked and loaded for him, but if firing for any length of time, rate of fire would be drastically reduced, and other things like spotting ability and C2 would also suffer.

To get the most out of a system like this there really needs to be a gun commander/spotter and 1-2 loaders/asst. gunners in addition to the gunner. Hence, the crew of 4.

[Rastamon]

Thanks for the information Jason and YankeeDog. Good sign to see a lot of beta testers posting today.

I can see those triple 151s chewing through a lot of ammo and the need to have more hands available. Given their later war usage as a partial replacement for the 251/17 their should be some extra space available for the platoon leader or HMG teams. Either that or somehow those teams can act as part of the crew when on board. My goal is to see historical usage of them. Thanks again for the input.

[Michael Emrys]

One more duty for the crew to add to the ones mentioned by Jason and YD is that the gun(s) need to be cleaned after firing and any other necessary maintenance performed. This usually requires more than one person in order to be done reasonably quickly.

Michael

[JasonC]

Just a minor addition - doing the math, the triple mount would run through a 250 round ammo crate in 7 seconds of trigger time. 3 guns each 720 rpm = 12 rounds a second per gun = 36 rounds a second total consumption, 7 x 36 = 252, almost exactly one ammo crate.