AoC Soviet Tank Arrival poll

[Big Al]

An issue has been brought up to my attention about the amount of Soviet tank units in the Summer of 1942. Originally the 1941 campaign had the availability of these units in May 42 not Jan 42 reflecting the accuracy of Soviet Tank formations. But the game was found not to be fun without the tank units.

After some changes the light tank was introduced.

So this is a follow up and combination of the Winter Effects along with the 1942 offensive. I would like everyone's opinion if I should roll back the availability of the Soviet tanks to May of 1942 to come out in September 1942. Currently they come out in Jan 42 and arrive in May 42.

The Eastern Front is a difficult scenario to balance for fun and playability. The idea is to give a shot to the Germans in 1942 to win outright but also for them to realize that if they can't win they have to go on the defensive and hold on to what they have.

So currently our two balancing factors are the winter effects which most think are ok except for one of the Beta testers which I hold his opinion in high regard. The Soviets do get tanks via lend lease throughout the game so in 1942 they have SOME tanks but many feel too many too early through production. There are no gearing limits in SC2.

The objective of the 41 scenario is that at the peak of 1942 both players are on the edge of their seats and a few critical months are the deciding factor if the Germans will beat the Soviets or they will have to fight a long drawn out war.

So would delaying the tank arrival make this a better game without sacrificing fun for the Soviets?

[Strategiclayabout]

Maybe this can be made as an event ? Give the choice to the player:

1) to get tanks early but not full strength (half ?) and without upgrades (may 42 option)

(meaning all production is sent to the front "out of factories" and "without paint" as rumoured in some instances )

or

2) later with all upgrades and steps (september 42 option)

(meaning organized tank groups as the creation of tank armies in July 42)

- 1941 production for T-34 was around 2,500, and above 12,000 in 1942. Also, tanks mustered for 41 winter offensive were around 3,000 (half coming from Siberia) when soviet 1942 spring offensive at Kharkov barely had 1,500 left.

So I think it would make sense to have that choice and each side will be happy .

[Big Al]

Its not about the # of tanks, its about how the Soviets used them as a force. They were not very effective as an armored group functioning like the German armored group till later in 1942.

But the deal is as the Soviets you build all your tank groups ASAP when they are available saving MPPs. The hindsight is the killer. players know SC2 is an attacking game and while the Germans have better tanks the Soviets have more.

But maybe a scripted decision event for tank arrival would be better. Set the date for May 1942 but have an event that says, hey we can build them now but slowly. Perhaps a few tank groups for the summer. Enough to make it a challenge for the Germans, not overwhelm them, and keep it fun for the Soviets.

I'll see what others think.

[xwormwood]

Even in 1943 the Germans were able to user their tanks more effective than the Russians, and with 1943 the Germans had Panthers and Tigers, which were better than their Russian counterparts.

The Russians won because they were able to outproduce the germans.

And when they realized how much more they had, they started to waste them. 1943 could have been the German 1944 if the Russians wouldn't have wasted their tanks (like at Kursk, where the Russian had a tank loss ration of 1:8, partly because of more or less suicice attacks against the German front lines).

Look for the historical reasons why the Russians used their tanks wrong. Bring this into the game.

To get your required effect you could introduce several decision events which forces and or seduces the russian player to spend his money. And with the money gone, he wouldn't be able to save for the tank introduction.

Use National Morale. Income. Diplomacy, Techs.

Maybe Stalin could ounish players which buy ahistorical tank units. He could send one or several of his better General toward Siberia or into a reeducation center. These Generals could reapear later with a different HQ rating. Or the building of early tank units could prevent slow down the industry evacuation. Unspent money could get lost from burocracy. Or to much money in the bank could reduce the overal income.

[Strategiclayabout]

Ah sorry I misunderstood !

- One way around would be to put more tanks in the production queue at set dates thus decreasing the tank pool at normal cost for 1942.

*

- We have 10 possible tank units to build from the availability date plus 2 already in the production queue (nov and dec 41, say the siberian tanks) so 12 as a total.

- USSR created 7 main tank units for the war (assuming 2 game tank/mechanized units for 1 historical one) as following:

summer 42:

3rd guards (may), 5th tank (june), 1st guards, 4th tank (july)

winter 43:

2nd tank, 5th guards (january)

winter 44:

6th guards (january)

(I know several were disbanded, recreated, renamed and armies other that these had quite some tanks but let's keep it simple )

*

- So we can:

1) put 6 tank units in queue (4 for january 43, 2 for january 44), leaving 4 in pool

(not upgraded and not full steps since soviet player won't have to buy them)

That dent in tank pool would simulate the loss of production due to factory transfer for 41-42.

2) keep tank availability date at january 1942

- Soviet player will be able to produce 4 historical units for summer 42 (4 game units) at normal price but not at full strength (4 game units instead of 8). Bringing those new 1942 tank armies to "full power" (8 game units) will require extra MPPs (soft builds) or limit early soviet tank spamming (hard builds).

Hope it will help your thinking .

[Big Al]

Yea that's an easy solution. I'm just getting information on the subject. AoC is a complex game that takes time to play correctly. I have played a lot of games but not enough.

Some argue the game is balanced. But anyone playing Germany must realize that their 1941 goal is to destroy the Soviet army as much as possible and keep them beat down as long as possible. Only when the Soviet economy + Western Allied attacks start affecting the swing of MPPs is when the Soviets start changing the game.

Still taking in data. From my experience an equal skill level makes an exciting game. An unequal skill level might find one side or another reeling from blows through 1942. I might have to play a few games to see where 1942 is at from the Barb games.

[steel32]

Al from limited experience in human to human play so far it seems the tanks are needed ASAP for the soviets.

Most games the German panzer forces are intact after the winter unlike history and by spring are up to full strength with more mechanized corp to go along.

Not having Russian tanks sooner can have a detrimental effect on the soviets long-term. A typical game might find the German advance near the same as history however with less of a recoil once the soviets do in fact start there main push back. Reason being is Germans most likely will not make the same mistakes losing 25% of their army in one battle.

[Big Al]

Al from limited experience in human to human play so far it seems the tanks are needed ASAP for the soviets.

Most games the German panzer forces are intact after the winter unlike history and by spring are up to full strength with more mechanized corp to go along.

Not having Russian tanks sooner can have a detrimental effect on the soviets long-term. A typical game might find the German advance near the same as history however with less of a recoil once the soviets do in fact start there main push back. Reason being is Germans most likely will not make the same mistakes losing 25% of their army in one battle.

How are you playing the Soviets in 1941? I had the same issue until I realized I was playing them wrong. The dynamics of the German attack and Soviet defense are intricate. Even I haven't figured out all the strategies.

[steel32]

Against computer I have no problem and defeat 43 or 44.

However Human I find my same strategy does not work near as well.

1. Try to get as much out of the 1st turn onslaught as possible. Operate out where possible.

2. Get behind rivers Velkaya (as Divina seems suicide against a rapid advancing German), all along the Dnieper from Nikoloyev to Vitebsk.

3. Try to keep divisions/garrisons in woods/hills in front to road block.

4. Keep an army if at all possible in cities along the way to road block, if not able to really entrench then a division.

5. Counter at the rivers if at all possible.

6. Then book out once breached again leaving road blocks.

7. Fall back in north with as many units in woods/swamps to delay the advance on Leningrad as 41' it is vulnerable.

8. Fall back on central cities and again entrench await.

9. Fall back on Melitpol to Kharhov with a full line.

10. Attack Finland trying to hold Viipuri in 41' which is mostly possible.

11. Look for counters to isolate German spearheads once they approach the industrial base areas in central.

12. Pray for rain, mud, and snow.

[Big Al]

Seems like you are doing it right. How far does the German human player get to in 1941. What line in the front?

[steel32]

Generally in 41

the line is next to Leningrad which is fine.

In front of Moscow a few hexes back.

All southern industrial in German hand, sometimes Sevastopol.

Basically close to realistic 41'.

To be honest need to play further to tell if soviet tanks are too early or not as most HvsH games have ended here for one reason or another.

However I do note that there is no tank loss' for the germans usually and they are in good position for a 42' attack.

Perhaps also my Russian attack in winter needs to be more fierce and pierce lines as much as possible to reel them back.

However from experience this tells me from all I have gathered that Soviet tank arrival is fine if a relentless German attack is done in 41'.

I will give more information once a game goes further.

[Big Al]

Seems like you might be not pulling back at the right time and losing more units than you should. Also you need to entrench city armies like 3-4 turns before Germans arrive. They need to be max entrench.

In winter you need to POUND the Germans even if its a 1-0, 2-1.... you need to reduce their moral down. More you pound longer they have to wait in 1942 to attack.