panzer elite

[Guest Stabsfeldwebel]

Saw this game, graphics looked a little iffy, what do you guys think?

[Galland0]

Well,

I waited for a good while before picking Panzer Elite up last nite. Currently I'm playing it with a mouse and key board and just getting a feel for it. I'm not dissappointed, but this game is not a Panzer Commander type sim. It is a platoon leader/tactical commander feel in it's scope.

It does support a joystick, but I haven't found it to be a "have to" componet. This game is focused on tank platoon tactics. The AI appears logical and stable. Never played it without the patch though. So I'm not familiar with the game out of the box.

I spend most of the time in the commanders position, because of the tank overlay you can issue orders fairly easy. There is no keyboard overlay though so I'm going to copy the two pages of commands onto one sheet of paper.

Graphics aren't state of the art 3D, there what you see on the box. It does work well though.

My machine is:

PII 350

Diamond TNT Viper 550 16mb

Soundblaster live

128 Ram

This isn't an action lovers game.The salesmen

said alot of people were returning it because they expected something faster paced. I guess

not everyone savors setting up an ambush and waiting a realistic amount of time 3-5min. for an enemy column to come into view.

Played it for maybe 6hrs tops currently. Personally I'm very happy with Panzer Elite and it has helped me relieve my constant scanning of the CM posts for a bulletin on CM's release.

Galland0

[This message has been edited by Galland0 (edited 12-16-99).]

[fatherof4]

I love Panzer Elite. It's the only computer game I'm playing right now (in between my CM PBEM turns of course). I could go on, but this is really an Off Topic thread so I won't.

To justify in my mind posting something off topic, I'd also like to bring up something that is very much on topic. I've been playing PE with an online battalion ( http://us4tharmordiv.tripod.com/ ) and this has sparked an interest in me for participating in a "Meta Campaign" others have talked about here before. (see http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/001535.html for more info).

Playing with a team has an appeal to me that just playing online for myself doesn't. It's a lot of fun and might be for CM too. Then again, this type of thing may be much better suited to sims where a long battle is an hour. My PBEM games usually take a couple of weeks to finish now. (They should be faster, but I don't always remember to attach the correct files)

Glenn

a.k.a. SSgt. fatherof4, 4AD37TB, 2nd platoon

[Guest phoenix]

Tried the demo...thought I would really like it. Bought the game. Hated it. Scenarios seemed scripted, controling the tanks was very difficult. Infantry was a joke.

Then the CM demo came out and I never started the game again. Sold it for $20.

Try the demo.

[jgdpzr]

I love Panzer Elite! It is far-and-away the best WWII tank sim yet to be developed. Are the graphics cutting edge? Probably not, but imo, they are the first to get terrain right in terms of detail, use of cover, hull-down positioning, etc. Is the game easy? Nope, steep learning curve, particularly in terms of command & control, tactics, gunnery, etc. Is the game an action-fest? No, it's a sim, true to the bone.

Another big plus: Much like CM, the developers stand by their product. The lead developer Teut Weideman (sic.?) personally answers virtually all questions posted on their bulletin board and seems possessed to do everything possible to get things "right." Definite similarities there between Wings and BTS.

Sure, the game has some warts (some clipping, still crashes occasionally, some AI glitches, etc.) but the developers are responsive and quick to patch. The game takes some time to get a hang of, but the future seems bright (although Teut said they will be looking for another publisher as Psygnosis is out of the picture for Panzer Elite 2). There are a number of on-line groups springing up, so if that is your forte, you should have plenty of options. All-in-all, I am very happy with PE. When Combat Mission comes out, I will have a hard time finding enough time to play both to my fullest content (damn job!).

BTW, our man Fionn was lead tester for Panzer Elite, so that should at least tell you the developers were serious about getting quality testers!

[Schrodi]

Hmmm, that sounds intersting. What's the web page?

[Zulu]

Like others, I got PE the other day. IMHO it's a mixed bag. Graphics are pretty good on armor to laughable on the troops. In the opening credits, the GE infantry move like they're running at 0.25 g's. The AI has problems. The install is ridiculous. I choose a medium install, and it took about 20 min to install at 440 meg! CM's full install c/w scenario designer promises to be < 100 meg with better graphics, betterAI and a more intuitive user interface. As mentioned PE has a very steep learning curve. Better than Panzer Commander, yes, better than CM, not by a long shot. There's at least 2 patches out already which help but do not solve all problems. Problems that I've had with CM = 0 (Oh, ya I forgot, not enough scenarios ). Is it worth buying, I'd wait until it shows up in the discount bins.

[Kevin Christensen]

Panzer Elite is at http://www.wingssimulations.com

I've been playing Panzer Elite for a week on a reconditioned HP with 500 Mhz Celeron with 96 Mgs and the onboard Intel 3D that I bought specifically to play Panzer Elite. It has a steep learning curve, much more so than Combat Mission (which I also love and expect to buy and enjoy). Since the GUI on Combat Mission is so intuitive, the learning is chiefly about tactics... what works and what doesn't. But Panzer Elite works on a different level than Combat Mission. It just as involving, but more immersive and frantic since it is 1st person and the realtime environment leaves you with lots to do and less control. For those impatient with the necessity to drive to an engagement, the 3 instant action scenerios are plenty challenging. I've managed to get past a platoon of Mk IIIs, another of Mk IVs, another of armoured cars, Panthers, then Jagdpanthers, Hetzers, and was rewarded by Tiger 1s coming from 3 directions. This, I submit, it not a dull game. And as far as the scenerios go, I've wanted for a long time to understand what it was like for the tank and td crews in WWII. This is the game I've been waiting for all my life.

Personally, I'm very impressed with the graphics, sounds, and AI. The landscapes are richly varied, offering lots of tactical challenges and eye-candy. It's not as dazzling as Riven or Unreal, but the game pushes the envelope in it's own genre. Like Combat Mission, it pushes a lot of polygons. The vehicle interiors are very well done. The vehicle and scenerio selection is good and will only get better. Wings plans on issuing the scenerio editors. The current version includes 40 missions in North Africa, Italy, and Normandy. A mission disk will cover the Bulge to the end of the War.

I rather think that most people who enjoy Combat Mission would enjoy Panzer Elite. They both seem crafted with an exquisite attention to getting things right and a respect for the events, people, and machines that inspired the games. The developers for both games are very responsive and open and deeply passionate about their games. It's not just a job, but a grail. The same, I think, could be said for the fans of the games. It's not just play.

Kevin Christensen

Lawrence, KS

[civdiv]

I've been playing PE since it came out and it is a game with vast potential, though potential that hasn't been realized yet. The game shipped to soon and required immediate patching. The initial patch (1.07) was flawed which required another version of the same patch (1.07 final), which similiarly was flawed, and required another patch (1.072) to fix it. Then, the patches being having screwed up many persons installs, another download was made available to check your install, which similarly didn't work, followed by a second, and recently a 3rd version of this install checker.

As I said when I opened this msg, it has vast potential, but it hasn't been realized yet. There are still a few bugs that need to be ironed out, and many things that need to be improved;

1) Your AI gunner sometimes enters a period when he shoots well to the right of the target for no apparant reason.

2) The armor modelling is flawed, probably due to coding typos. We had a PSW 222 which was just about indestuctable, and Shermans were dinging Panthers and Tigers from long range, while the Panthers and Tigers have trouble killing Shermans at close range.

3) The wingman AI is pretty bad, and you can't make them backup. They frequently drive in circles, exposing their flanks and rear to the enemy.

4) The graphic representation of rounds impacting is weak, it's tough to tell where your shots are landing.

5) The manual is attrocious and many of the commands are undocumented. As an example, there isn't a single reference to a gun sight in the entire manual!

6) Many complaints of problems with joysticks and the Game Commander. I use the mouse so I don't know much about this.

7) You can't hop from one tank to another, so if you lose yours (representing the Plt Leader), even if you have 4 other nice, shiny tanks, it's mission over. Plus, you have to lead with your tank.

8) Beautifally rendered crew positions which are absolutely useless. They should be like M1TPII, where you can click on things to make them work. Otherwise, why include them?

9) Many graphics glitches. You can sometimes see the explosion and smoke cloud of a tank killed behind you, in front of you! Seams in the tiles are usually visible, objects at a distance 'float' above the terrain, tanks drive right through each other, terrain appears in front of you at a range of a 100 meters, etc.

10) Extremely weak sound, the first you know that you are being shot at is when you explode.

11) The menus are very flawed, or else they aren't documented.

IMHO, M1TPII is still way ahead of PE. PE has the potential to be better, but whether it ever realizes that potential is another question. I still play it regularly, and I've put together a 13 page FAQ to partly make up for the manual. I can even say that it is enjoyable, and very challenging, the learning curve is almost vertical. But I kick myself for reading the review Game Spot gave it with the 9.3 or whatever score and then waiting for the first patch (It didn't even work out of the box for me.). If I had to do it again, I would have returned it and let someone else be a retail Beta tester.

[Fionn]

I'll just step in here for a very short time and make a few comments since I did test although it should be noted a dropped out of testing PE several months ago when I got involved with CM but I was one of the driving forces when it was alpha and early beta.

1. Well, the shooting to the right is a bug BUT its only of graphical importance since at those times I think the gunner is deemed to have missed anyway its just that the game doesn't differ which side he misses to when that bug kicks in. (minor bug)

2. Not an armour model flaw but a code error actually. It definitely needs fixing.

3. I think that happens mostly when you give poor commands. I think that once familiarity with the game kicked in most testers who had that problem found themselves not having it anymore. I WILL say that your tanks don't keep their fronts to the enemy as much as they should though but I think a lot of this is just not using the correct commands.

4. Hmm, some would say that's realistic I suppose ... Not a bug but maybe a player preference request.

5. Manual was written a LONG time before the game shipped. I actually know the guy who wrote the manual and he DID do a good job but many features were added later and not mentioned.

#In the industry manuals are often finished a few weeks (and sometimes longer) before the game is finished which is why you get readme files listing new commands in games which went in AFTER the manual was sent for printing.

6. I haven't played it actually since I got my copy. I just read the manuals but am busy with CM.

7. Well, that's a design choice and not a bug. If you don't like it you can ask for it to be changed of course but it isn't a bug.

8. Include them because that's what the inside of the tank looks like. There needs be no more justification than that. Again a design decision and not a bug.

9. Well some of that is unavoidable (floating tanks is due to graphical averaging of terrain to reduce workload and occurs in PzC and M1TPII also) and I just don't plain understand what you mean by "terrain appears in front of you at 100 metres". Surely that's supposed to happen?

10. Historically that's what happened. In a tank you rely on your eyes not your ears.

11. Not documented.. Yup, that's the manual problem I mentioned.

I do think it needs more patches from what I hear though.

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___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Los]

I won't go into a detailed review but I like Panzer Elite. I think if you like CM there is a good cjhance you will like the complimentary Panzer elite. If find it immersive. Cheers...

Los

[civdiv]

Fionn:

What I said was 'There are still a few bugs that need to be ironed out, and many things that need to be improved;' meaning the following fell into either catagory.

1. I have my doubts about your conclusion. I have seen the AI hit a tank 2 or 3 times in a row, and then miss 6 times, far to the right of the target, even at ranges of less than 300 meters. I have seen this happen on a number of occasions. Teut has acknowledged this as a bug.

3. The inability for the wingmen tanks to backup in itself is a huge design flaw. The habit they have of simply driving in circles indicates poor AI, regardless of the 'understanding of the commands'.

4. I spent 8 years in the USMC as an Artillery FO. The graphic representaion of the round impact is weak. I mean, seriously, I have yet to figure out what they are trying to represent. Maybe I'll take some screen shots. All I see is like a white plume, that lasts a split second. It's almost impossible to tell where it is, sometimes it seems suspended in the air. I'm not sure of it is supposed to represent; the round flying through the air, or the strike, or what. Obviously a solid core penetrator doesn't explode, but it makes a nice flash if it hits metal and it does kick up a great deal of dirt. I can spot the impact of a 20mm solid core round at 1500m in dry ground, I should be able to see a 75mm round impact at 500. Plus, given the shortcomings of depicting this on a cpu monitor, todays qraphic shortcomings, and the lack of 4 other persons also spotting, it seems clear (to me) that a case can be made for actually increasing the depiction of the impacts, beyond that of reality.

5. I doubt if they added the 'chrome' of gun sights after they started development.

This is a tank sim, after all.

7. Not being able to switch tanks is a design decision, but a very ahistorical one. My reading of history (And I enclosed many references in a thread on the Wings board) indicates that given a commander who wasn't heavily wounded or killed, and the close proximity of another tank, he almost invariably remounted to resume command.

8. We are bound to disagree. The crew positions are useless so why render them? And if you render them, why not make them interactive? I have to say, that given the effort that went into them, they were to have been interactive, but they shipped early. Why not nicely render the interior of the engine compartment, or the inside of an external equipment box, or the inside of the commander's binocular case?

9. What I mean is, it looks flat in front of you but when you get within 100m it suddenly turns into a steep incline or decline. I think it's called 'terrain pop-up'.

10. I would make the case that many tank crews discovered they were being shot at when they heard the ear-splitting crack of a high velocity round hitting the outside of their tank. They also heard near misses, felt HE rounds, heard small arms, and then felt and heard the occasional short round that impacted on the ricochet. The only thing you hear in this game is guns firing, and tanks blowing up, nothing in between.

It has huge problems, but the bare-bones for a great sim are there. Sorry Fionn, IMO, the accountants got to this one and forced it out the door. As I told Teut, I just hope the designers fought tooth and nail before succombing.

[This message has been edited by civdiv (edited 12-17-99).]

[Major Tom]

Hell, you want to see a top quality tank game? Get your hands on a copy of 'Sands of Fire'. Stationed in North Africa, you drive a series of British tanks to whipe out the massed numbers of Germans with a single charge. I cannot stress the horror of this game. I don't remember when it came out, possibly late 1980's. I suppose for then it was interesting enough, but, it was really a very boring game to play after a while.

[Major Tom]

Hell, you want to see a top quality tank game? Get your hands on a copy of 'Sands of Fire'. Stationed in North Africa, you drive a series of British tanks to whipe out the massed numbers of Germans with a single charge. I cannot stress the horror of this game. I don't remember when it came out, possibly late 1980's. I suppose for then it was interesting enough, but, it was really a very boring game to play after a while.

[Fionn]

1. Yup, I said it was a bug I ALSO said that as far as I knew it meant you had missed anyway and was mainly a graphics bug. Maybe they broke something in the later stages of beta which expanded that bug.. Like I said I wasn't in there at the end so can't be sure.

3. I have seen wingmen back up. I have seen people complain to testers about this and know that most of these people can be shown how to have tanks back up.. I don't play much so can't advise you but I've seen mucho tanks backing up.

4. Sounds like you got a case there.. Things need to be "more impressive" on a monitor to be as impressive as they are in real life.

5. NOT what I said at all. Let me give you a hypothetical scenario...

"Manual includes gunnery section... Gunnery sights are changed... Changes make gunnery section out of date.... Manual goes for printing minus ANY gunnery section since gunnery section was out of date and hasn't been updated."

7. I agree. That was my position among the testers... Not everything I advocate goes in though. Don't take it that I aprove of everything in a game just cause I happened to test it at one stage

8. You're supposition is incorrect.

9. Ouch. That's nasty. Pop-up is a problem sometimes.

10. I think you are meant to hear sounds of near misses etc. I seem to remember hearing them. Could you be having a card problem?

Maybe it got broken between beta and gold.

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___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers