Questions for Steve (General PBEM) #3

[Guest Big Time Software]

Rhet had asked a question about the flags. I know how they are supposed to work, but Charles and I are trying to figure out if something went wrong at some point. Back when I know something

Someone else, don't know in what thread, had asked about liberated units not getting their weapons back. They don't get them back because when captured they are most likely going to be left on the ground. Since it is HIGHLY unlikely they will be liberated in the same area, or be able to move back and collect their stuff, captured units reamin weaponless. They would also probably be pretty fried from a cohesion standpoint. Whatever made them surrender couldn't have been forgotten very quickly

Steve

[krm]

Steve,

I'm wondering about the deployment of Martins "ambush" bazooka, and why the target area seems to be so close to his team. It would seem to me as though the passing unit will have to be almost on top of him before he fires? Do units take the liberty of firing at a greater distance if under the ambush command, they spot something that would be good hunting?

P.S the game looks fantastic, in fact I had a dream about it last night! Just joking.

[Guest Big Time Software]

The reason is LOS. For his guy to be in good cover AND have a shot, the target area needed to be fairly close. I think he could have pushed it back a bit, but perhaps he put the bazooka too far into the woods.

Don't laugh about having dreams about CM. Either Martin or Fionn REALLY did have some right after getting the game. I kid you not

Rhet... got your answer here about the flag thing. Answer is... dunno from the screenshots what is going on. We haven't noticed anything whacky, but we will keep an eye on it. Here is how it is supposed to work:

1. No spotting of enemy units, no friendly units nearby - Neutral

2. Enemy units spotted right next to the flag, but no friendlies in the area - Enemy

3. Enemy units spotted right next to the flag, but enough friendlies are in the area to contest - Neutral

4. Same as above, but reversed sides - Neutral

5. Friendlies right next to flag, no enemies anywhere around - Friendly

Basic jist of this is that the flag isn't supposed to tell you anything you don't already know.

Steve

[Simon Fox]

On the subject of critical hits I am pretty happy to see it in action. As a general question do the chances of critical hits vary (a) for different tanks and ( also with the quality of the firing crew. Some tanks had known "weak spots" which veteran crews were sure to aim for. In this regard I cite the well known quote from a Canadian tanker on how to knock out a Panther head on with a Sherman 75.

"If you hit it on this big heavy gun mount, what happens, it just bounces off. But the armour on the driver and on the co-driver's, see how thin it is in here. Now if you can get around, to come on in, and hit on the lower side of this gun mount, which gives you a target of about four or five feet wide, and from there down to here. The round cannot bounce off, it must bounce down. And when it bounces down, what does it do? It smashes this weak armour here over the driver and the co-driver and in most cases, we found out that they're either badly wounded or they're killed, and the tank is automatically knocked out. If you can get your second round, if you can't get your first one, your second round in from here down to the bottom, we found out that you could destroy a tank, with a 75 mm., at up to eight, nine hundred yards, head on."

Basically if you bounce the round off the bottom of the mantlet it ricochets down onto the thin top armour above the driver/co-driver. The target described is about six inches in diameter. But note that this is a non-penetrating hit that "kills" the tank. Easy!

[Dar]

Steve:

Noting that you can track individual shells and bazooka rounds from the screenshots, I am curious if, under your multiple level FoW rules, can an otherwise hidden unit's location be revealed by tracing a round back from its origin? In other words, can your opponent see where the round came from that brewed up his vehicle during the replay, whether or not there are any surviving units capable of spotting the ambusher?

Thanks,

Dar Steckelberg

[Ben Galanti]

I've got a quick question on vehicle crews. Are they tracked by position? Is there a specific driver/gunner/loader/commander/etc or just 4 generic guys in the vehicle?

Fionn has said he lost a gunner in one of his SPWs and the driver in one of the StuGs, how does he know who was hit? Or is he just spicing up the story a bit and reporting that the vehicle crew took a casuality?

[tgra]

Hi Steve,

What's stopping Martin from blowing the bridge once (if) he has control of the town?

I think it's been said that vehicles can't get across the frozen river and the tree-lines make a lovely kill-zone (admittedly on both sides) for the numerous infantry he's got.

Even if there's a break-through there's the nice run-up to the Town over open ground.

I've probably missed something, which is why I always get battered at chess.

Cheers

Tony

[Pixman]

Steve, quick follow up on Doug's question about LOS in the now closed previous thread. You answered that there is no way to know what can see your units other than being fired on or jumping up and asking, "hey can you see me" (cute by the way, ). Understood. But I think Doug's question was, can you tell what enemy unist any one of your individual units can spot? This is an important distinction. Thanks.

Nice job on keeping up with all of this by the way.

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The enchanter may confuse the outcome, but the effort remains sublime.

[Pixman]

Lokesa, yes I think you are correct -- Lt. Stahler. He was definitely a 9-2. As I think I said in another thread, I too loved Rise and Decline of the 3rd Reich. Sounds like your brother needed some time limits imposed on turns. Do you agree with me that a good computer simulation of that game would be awesome?

Sorry guys, know this is off topic.

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The enchanter may confuse the outcome, but the effort remains sublime.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Simon, fortunately for Fionn he is using the late model Panther G with the mantlet "chin". Seems the Germans realized what the Canadians did and decided to do some redesign work

Dar, it is possible is some circumstances. I have seen bazooka smoke but not the bazooka itself for example. And if you freeze frame the movie in just the right way and time you can probably find the shell of a direct fire weapon. This can then be traced back to the source (sorta). You really have to go the extra mile for this, and all it will tell you is direction. It is possible that this info could be gotten on the battlefield as well as the shell cutting through the air makes sound, and sometimes alert units could figure out where the shells were coming from as a result.

Ben, we do not track crew positions in all vehicles. HOWEVER, in vehicles like HTs, there was only a 2 man crew. So if the driver got hit the gunner would take over. If the gunner got hit, the gun would remain unoccupied. So Fionn could easily state that the HT's gunner got nailed, but he embellished about the tanker's driver. In fact, it would be impossible for the StuG to have lost the driver as there is no driver hatch (there is a hatch for getting in and out, but not accessible while driving).

Tony, Martin could try and blow the bridge, but he has no engineers and is out of artillery, so he would have to use tank fire to do this. And that is a slow process which distracts his tanks. I wouldn't recommend such an action.

Pixman, the only way is to trace LOS to the unit. If you can that means there is a very good chance that the unit could, potentially, be the one that spotted you. But this is really not very useful to know unless the unit is isolated. For example, Fionn's relief force is out in the open now. Any one of 3 dozen US units can see pretty much all of them. However, in the woods to the south Fionn took out the last US unit (bazooka) and everything "went dark" for the US in that spot.

Gee, I think I caught up here

Steve

[Dar]

Steve:

One more question about FoW:

I like the appearance of symbols representing where the last known positions of enemy units where (witness the crosses that appeared after Martin's MG team surrendered to the StuG force in the woods). However, do these crosses remain there until that unit is resighted, or do they fade away after a turn or so?

I must say, I am salivating over this game! The play-by-play has got me frantic--I'm checking the site out several times a day to see if any new turns are posted! And, of course, I had to pre-order last night because I live in fear and dread that the game will be sold out if I don't!

Dar Steckelberg

[Guest Big Time Software]

Hello and welcome Henri,

I am going to answer your post that was closed up here so as to not tip off either player...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>do their orders imply that the town must not fall at any cost? Is it Ok to lose it temporarily? Are the losses in the latter case such that it is preferable to take more losses to get there faster?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are no victory conditions in CM that make it good or bad to take or lose something SPECIFICALLY. However, if the Americans take the town before the relief force is close, then they will have a chance to consolidate and make a very determined stand. The problem for Fionn (and he doesn't know this!) is that Martin has an EQUAL number of troops right now in the village area. So if Fionn rushes and loses much infantry along the way, he will be behind the eight ball. On the other hand, if Fionn can hold onto the town until the relief force is juuuust about there, Martin's defenses will not be as well established and can be attacked more easily.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Do the Germans have any choice? Do the snow and narrow forest roads actually force the GErmans to take the chance that the town will fall? This seems to be the opinion of teh gErman player.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, the Germans are in a VERY tough position. I do not envy Fionn. He could try rushing, and who knows it could work, but there really should be a degree of caution exercised by the relief force. Unfortunately, Fionn was really outnumbered in the village, he made some mistakes, and Martin is doing a great job attacking so I don't think the village has a chance of being held. It *might* have, especially if Martin had chose to put some of his forces against the relief force instead of against the village.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Were the Germans justified in dividing their force? Since there are a number of paths to the town, should the GErmans have taken a chance and sent most or all of their force down a single path, the one with the least chance of a destroyed unit blocking the road? Since the Americans have to protect all the paths at least with a token force, wouldn't this have more chance of a quick breakthrough? If not, why 3 paths and not 2. Or is this a given of the scenario (in which case some division commander should be kicked...). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are two reasons why Fionn has three avenues of advance. One is that I (the scenario designer) pretty much forced him to have at least 2 paths by the way I set up his deployment zones. The second reason is to protect his flanks. Martin could have made Fionn's life miserable by attacking him in the rear or flank with even a smallish force. So Fionn did the right thing and protected his flanks. But one of the most important reason is that if the road became blocked by an ambush, all would be lost. So in this case, it is a strategy to ensure that the whole thing isn't bottle necked by a small US ambush.

Wargames in general do a piss poor job when simulating heavily wooded roads. In real life ONE disabled vehicle (even a small one) could hold up the entire works for hours. But most wargames simply let you move a stack through either without penalty or with a slight MP restriction. But in CM a knocked out vehicle could block the road FOR GOOD (at CM's scale, for good is the length of the scenario). Once the code is in to push vehicles out of the way this won't be as much of an issue, but it will always be. Say his StuG lead the advance for Eberbach and became knocked out. What then for the 5 HTs behind it? Can they move a disabled tank? No, they can not. A tank can push an HT because it is heavier, but this doesn't work the other way around. Also pushing vehicles will take time.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Is the US decision to defend against the German reinforcements with a token force the best? What is the best ratio and disposition of forces when carrying out an assault while expecting enemy reinforcements? Would it be a viable choice for teh US to throw everything at the town, hoping to take it before the German reinforcements arrive? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The US basically concentrated all of its forces against the town. It left 3 tanks to help slow up the advance of the relief force, but as we can see that didn't really work out too well The US had some 6 platoons available at the start. Martin chose to put only 1.3 of those platoons against the relief force and the rest against the town. All light mortars and most of his machineguns were also used against the town, while more bazookas were left facing the woods. Now with 2 more platoons in as reinforcements, he has basically 2 full companies to storm the town with. Fionn only has about a platoon and a half of effectives and no heavy weapons remaining. Should be a quick fight once Martin orders the village stormed. Then this force can turn around and face Fionn's relief force. It will be interesting to see how this turns out!

Steve

[Ben Galanti]

I've got a quick question about the 'generic vehicles'. Martin's troops haven't ID'd Fionn's Puma yet, and so it's shown as a generic halftrack... Is this a mis-identification by Martin's troops? All we've seen so far are generic tanks and halftracks. Are there going to be other generic vehicles, or are all vehicles going to fall into one of these two catagories until ID'd?

[Darstand]

Questions about programing

The game seems small (in MB)

Are you useing a low level of polygon counts?

Or a low level of color such as 256?

The email pakages seem very small, how are you guys doing this?

Is there going to be a soundtrack, or is it just going to be the sounds of battle?

I see that you are making this game for the Mac also. Are you using a lagauge that is some how common to both? Or writing two games at once? Or writing in one language then porting to the other?

[Guest Big Time Software]

Thanks for the praise and the preorder! We aim to please!

The symbols will fade away on their own. But it takes some time (more than a turn I think). However, if nobody is spotting the unit then the symbol will not move again. For gameplay reasons we decided to keep the symbol to unit thing tightly tied. So once the unit is spotted somewhere else the old one is removed. I can tell you that this really freaks me out!

I see, say, 10 crosses in the woods, then some units partially spotted, I loose my spotter, then they all revert to crosses and remain WAY TOO STILL!!! I have no idea what is going on, but something has got to be up! Then all of a sudden something of mine gets shot at or brews up, then the little crosses start to wink out as enemy units start to appear someplace new. It is oh so nerve racking, and I love it

Steve

[Guest L Tankersley]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Lokesa, yes I think you are correct -- Lt. Stahler. He was definitely a 9-2.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are actually several Stahler counters of different ranks and at least 2 nationalities (US & German) in ASL. I'll be sure to tell Jim how you felt he was made of titanium; he says he personally never had much luck when using his own leader counter.

L. Tankersley

P.S. I am now officially drooling over CM.

[Mike Oberly]

Steve-

On Martin's turn 8,as he was backing his Sherman into position to cover the road,the building beside it was hit(by Fionn's Panther,I believe),causing the Sherman to be immobilized.My question is,why was the building fired upon?Was the tank's movement spotted somehow,or was it just a precautionary measure by the Panther?Or am I missing something here?

Thanks,

Mike

[Guest Big Time Software]

Simon - the shot trap on the early Panther was a well-known defect and CM models that by allowing a much larger chance of a critical hit (6% instead of 1%) when firing at this tank's front. So Sherman 75s can definitely destroy the Panther using this achilles heel (and a little luck!).

Charles

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 08-26-99).]

[Dar]

A note to KRM from one of the first posts in this thread:

You asked about the bazooka team and the ambush zone that looked like it almost had to be stepped on to trigger the ambush--I've read in other posts and spots on the site that there are several levels of forest detail and unit magnification, so the forest may not look as dense as simulated and the unit may look much larger than scale. The bazooka team may be 20 or more meters back in the woods than looks from the screenshot, depending on those settings.

Am I wrong, BTS?

Dar Steckelberg

[Guest Lokesa]

I am seriously proud of you guys (sniff, sniff) after all this time, the game seems to be really coming together

At the begining of Fionn and Moons battle I looked at the situation, forces involved and deployment and made predictions as to the possible outcomes. Although in many respects what I expected to happen is coming true, the way that it is happening is much more intense than I expected (will the real tactical game please step forward).

I try not to let myself expect games to be this or that based on promises or propaganda but I give up, you guys are doing an incredible job and it is much appreciated.

I see two styles of multiplayer awaiting me, pbem games like what Moon and Fionn are doing and games with the time for watching movies and inputing orders set at a minimal level (5 to 10 minutes). Will the latter be possible? I think it would create a rather frantic envirionment where planning and quick thinking will rule the day.

Pixman, there was a pc version of Rise and Fall put out about a year ago. I dont know how good it was though... I think I'm going with BTS's philosophy regarding making a computer squad leader, rather than make a direct port of the game why not use the computers abilities to make the game even better. But yes a "good" WWII economic and strategical game would be great

[Guest Big Time Software]

Dar - yes you're right. Tree coverage and unit size can be adjusted (purely for graphical purposes, it does not change the simulation).

Lokesa - yes we're hoping we can get (optional) time-limited TCP/IP game support into CM. It would be a lot of fun.

Charles

[fatherof4]

Steve, could you clear up something from the Turn 8 reports?

Did Eberbach lose two SPW 251/1's: one to mortar fire and one to the bazooka team in the woods?

[This message has been edited by fatherof4 (edited 08-26-99).]

[Rhet]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Rhet... got your answer here about the flag thing. Answer is... dunno from the screenshots what is going on. We haven't noticed anything whacky, but we will keep an eye on it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't figure it out either In this turn eight screenshot http://combathq.thegamers.net/battle/Turn8hill.jpg the VPs are shown as neutral therfore, only cases 1,3&4 should apply.

1. No spotting of enemy units, no friendly units nearby - Neutral

3. Enemy units spotted right next to the flag, but enough friendlies are in the area to contest - Neutral

4. Same as above, but reversed sides - Neutral

Obviously Case #4 is out of the question. This means that the program (from Martins point of view) has determined that either Case #1 or Case #3 exists to cause the VPs to show as neutral. I do not think that Martins troops are close enough to contest the ownership of the VPs so I am also casting out Case #3.

If we look back to Martins turn 7 http://combathq.thegamers.net/battle/Turn7townfire.jpg all three of the VPs are shown as being held by Fionn. Note that the Church in this screen shot shows the exact level of spotting as in the turn 8 screen shot (both upper and lower walls dropped and two generic infantry markers inside the building).

The above comparison leaves Case #1 in my opinion to be a little suspect. This seems to be the same type of situation that I noticed in my earlier post. I could be the whacky one here but I can't figure out why this situation shows up this way.

I am dying to pose a hypothetical situation and ask another question but I will be patient and wait until an answer comes on this one.

The tension, excitement and emotion that CM brings out is clearly evident in this battle! I have never seen a game nor played one that even compares. Like Lokesa said "I am so proud of you guys" (sniff, sniff). The game is just as you promised.

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Rhet

[Mike D]

I extremely curious how Moon's latest Sherman that tried to move during turn 8 got immobilized?????

He seems to think (and apparently rightly so?) that the shot came from the Panther and hit the house. Granted the tank was pretty close to the house but if it was only an HE round, as Moon believes, how did it manage to immmobilize the Sherman????? Another lucky shot of some sort????????????????????

I'll say it right now, I find this to be extemely suspicious. In fact it wreaks of one of my biggest pet peeves with Close Combat III where tanks are actually blown up on the far side of buildings by HE shells that detonated in the building.

Certainly something this rediculous didn't happen here since the tank is only immobilized. However, I would say that IMHO it really doesn't make much sense that even this happened!!! If anything the crew might have been stunned a little by the sheer closeness of the blast in the adjacent house. But for secondary "house shrapnel" flying away from the center of the house to strike the Sherman and do any real damage to it...............I find that really hard to believe.

Even if the shot was an AP round which is entirely possible I guess (maybe the Panther was just lying in wait in ambush mode to fire at the first tank it saw moving????) it still seems highly unlikely that an AP round that obviously struck and then detonated in the house could have caused much damage to the Sherman.

Needless to say I'm quite puzzled about what happened here. Hopefully there is a good explanation and/or it is a bug and it will get fixed.

Regards,

Mike D

aka Mikester

[Pixman]

Ditto Mikester -- with a little less emotion.

I am just so very glad it was not, yet again, the StuGIII that became immortal by firing the shot that blew out the door that splintered in pieces that flew through the air and struck the track between the wheels immobilizing the tank sitting next to the house that Jack built.

I am starting to believe that Martin's best strategy would have been to drive all five of his tanks as fast as possible toward the exits from the woods and immobilize them across the roads himself. At least then they would have served some purpose.

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The enchanter may confuse the outcome, but the effort remains sublime.