Blind Area Fire with Grenades?

[Georgie]

Americans are attacking a gun position just over a sharp ridge withing easy grenade range. They know that its there because when they peeked over the ridge they could see it and they also took small arms fire from the position. It would be a classic use of grenades IRL. Just toss a few over the ridge and the gun position is kaput, but I cant seem to figure out how to do it. Cant target the action spot because its over the ridge.

[Broadsword56]

You can't really micromanage units to this extent. If your unit is really close to the gun position and the troops have detected it themselves (through sound or their quick peeks over the ridge) then they're likely to throw grenades at it on their own. But you can't specifially order grenade throws. So you just have to leave it up to their tactical judgment (experience, leadership, motivation and other soft factors may play a role in whether or how soon they take action) or find a way to call in some mortar fire. If they don't do something useful pretty soon, though, I'd recommend getting them the hell out of there!

[DasMorbo]

Yeah, had a similar problem, too.

Guy with MP40 behind wall mows down guy after guy and I can't lob a single grenade over the fu**ing wall.

Guess it can not be changed, I bet others have complained already and it's still that way.

Regards,

Olf

[mjkerner]

My experience is that if you slow (crawl) them to within one Action Square of the enemy you wish to 'nade, they will use their grenades most, if not all, of the time.

YMMV

[Michael Emrys]

If they have any smoke, you could order them to deploy the smoke, then charge through it and kill the gunners at close range.

Michael

[womble]

You can't really micromanage units to this extent. If your unit is really close to the gun position and the troops have detected it themselves (through sound or their quick peeks over the ridge) then they're likely to throw grenades at it on their own.

Really? I'd be surprised, since BFC have said the TacAI (which is what would be operating in this case) doesn't execute "Area fire", only shooting at spotted targets. It's a weakness of the AI opponent that's not shared by human ones. And even if the TacAI could use area fire, it would be labouring under the same targeting limitations that are stopping Georgie from setting up the area fire order.

The answer, I think, is that Georgie is hosed if the AS border runs across the sight-breaking crest and you can't draw LOS from any GI to the ground at the centre of the target AS.

The exception, I'm guessing, would be a unit that can target "just beyond LOS". These include mortar crews and HQs (and other FO-capable units, I think). Grenades can be thrown beyond LOS (I've seen it happen when I have set area fire at close targets and the "spread" inherent in area targets, or the scatter of a grenade throw has taken the grenade into an AS I couldn't have targetted), so if the unit can "guess" past LOS, and has grenades, they might be able to chuck over a sight-breaking crest.

[mjkerner]

Really? I'd be surprised, since BFC have said the TacAI (which is what would be operating in this case) doesn't execute "Area fire", only shooting at spotted targets. It's a weakness of the AI opponent that's not shared by human ones. And even if the TacAI could use area fire, it would be labouring under the same targeting limitations that are stopping Georgie from setting up the area fire order.

The answer, I think, is that Georgie is hosed if the AS border runs across the sight-breaking crest and you can't draw LOS from any GI to the ground at the centre of the target AS.

The exception, I'm guessing, would be a unit that can target "just beyond LOS". These include mortar crews and HQs (and other FO-capable units, I think). Grenades can be thrown beyond LOS (I've seen it happen when I have set area fire at close targets and the "spread" inherent in area targets, or the scatter of a grenade throw has taken the grenade into an AS I couldn't have targetted), so if the unit can "guess" past LOS, and has grenades, they might be able to chuck over a sight-breaking crest.

I'm pretty certain that my TAC AI-controlled P-truppen have lobbed grenades at enemies I/they can't see. I assumed they were acting on sound contacts.

[Broadsword56]

The troops definitely will lob grenades at adjacent enemies they know about but can't see. It happens all the time when enemies lob grenades back and forth over bocage or wall, etc.

[womble]

With unspotted targets? I've never seen that happen. Certainly, if two units are either side of bocage, within grenade range, they'll be spotted targets for each other most of the time.

[mjkerner]

Does a sound contact constitute "spotted"? I never thought about it until this thread, but it seems the TAC-AI lobs grenades without a full-on spotting of the enemy. I'll have to test it this weekend.

@Broadsword56: How ya been? I still am looking forward to MG battles under your campaign system, B-sword. I'll be retired in August, so I should be able to particiapte fully in your campaign, if you still need an opponent (and if MG is even released by then). If not, put me down as a fill-in/replacement player.

[womble]

Does a sound contact constitute "spotted"?

Not in the context that I was using it, at least "Spotted" means a solid icon, as far as I'm concerned.

I never thought about it until this thread, but it seems the TAC-AI lobs grenades without a full-on spotting of the enemy. I'll have to test it this weekend.

It'll be good if it does. It might indicate that there's the possibility of the TacAI being developed to employ speculative Area Fire/recon by fire in the future. Do let us know what the testing shows!

[kohlenklau]

...And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O LORD, bless this Thy hand grenade that with it Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits, in Thy mercy." And the LORD did grin and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats and large chu... [At this point, the friar is urged by Brother Maynard to "skip a bit, brother"]... And the LORD spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it."[1]

[kohlenklau]

ok, all joking aside, grenade throwing anecdote,

My 1st CMBN H2H battle still ongoing, Macisle's new map, CONSCRIPT German Army half-squad up on the bocage main line, hiding for a few turns, other units see green question mark circles near them, so I go unhide with these mortar bait trip-wire sacrificial anode soldaten guys and a slight face towards the enemy contacts. they were out of contact with their HQ by the way, the next minute they absolutely rocked, potato mashers flinging like non-stop, lots of MG42 and MP40 fire, wow! It said 6 grenades in the info box, but they flung like a dozen. and this was over their hedgerow, the road and the other hedgerow.

....the next turn they bugged out and some surrendered, but they lasted longer than I thought.