Guest phoenix Posted December 18, 1999 Share Posted December 18, 1999 So late this evening I fired up Last Defense for the billionth time. I'm playing the Americans and I saw what I can only describe as a shot from an M18 that must have been guided by none other the Almighty. I mean there is NO way this shot could happen. Is here? The scene. M18's arrive on turn 10. Dispatch the Stugs and loose one of their own. I had ordered one M18 to move *FAST* to the right with the hopes of getting a side shot on the Tiger. (It ended up getting knocked out by another M18 on the same turn) So while this M18 is *flying* across open ground AND at the same time is going down an embankment, the gunner lets loose a round at some 850+ meters and nails a halftrack. Now come on. Am I crazy here? Or isn't this an impossible shot? I'm talking FULL speed over open ground, with the tank going nearly parallel to a ridge line at the same time. Here's some shots - http://www.mother.com/~eastrup/temp/luckyshot1.jpg This is just after they have aquired the target. Then - http://www.mother.com/~eastrup/temp/luckyshot.jpg This is the actual shot that nails the HT. See what I mean about the steep slop? And this was while the tank was at FULL speed. I was unable to save the movie cause I screwed up!!! But believe me, the tank is full bore during this shot. So what's the deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted December 18, 1999 Share Posted December 18, 1999 Well, the old adage, s**t happens applies As you say this is the billionth time you played Last Defence but this is the most "way out in left field" shot you've seen yet. Sometimes a one in a million shot happens ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Deych Posted December 18, 1999 Share Posted December 18, 1999 I'm a little concerned about this, actually. If you look at the board collectively, a few people are posting that they encountered strange results. Sure, all low probabilities event have to happen eventually but they seem to happen a wee bit too often for my taste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted December 18, 1999 Share Posted December 18, 1999 Well I have played numerous times and haven't witnessed any shots that I deemed impossible as of yet. I don't know what to tell ya Greg if your seeing this stuff happen way to often Maybe your standards of what is plausible are much different than mine. I'm not seeing tanks spin in place, go wherever they please, nor find los through stone walls. I'm also not seeing tanks explode on their own either. As far as these wild shots I have yet to see any; I'm sorry but I must concur with FIonn on this one as I do play this game alot. If one of these incidents does happen; Well - I can't find myself grumbling too much because of the amount of games played in relation to the events described make a real steep ratio. SS_PanzerLeader...out [This message has been edited by SS_PanzerLeader (edited 12-18-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted December 18, 1999 Share Posted December 18, 1999 Greg, In all of my testing I've only seen two or three hits occur when vehicles were travelling at FAST. I'm sure most people will have seen one or two if they've played the scenarios many times. Think about it.. 3 scenarios with an average of 3 tanks per side. If each is played 10 times (and many people are playing them far more than this) and each tank only fired 30 shells per game (many games feature far more shells than this being fired per tank) we end up with 2700 shells being fired. Out of that many shots a 1 in a thousand shot is gonna happen 2 to 3 times minimum I've complained myself when I felt something was wrong and the AI got off a group of "lucky shots" but sometimes that's just the way the cookie crumbles. Sometimes those Shermans DO fire 3 shots and kill 3 Panthers while ALL 5 of your shots bounce off the front turret of the Sherman Jumbo at under 200 metres (it was a very painful moment let me tell you ).. One final point... People post about a strange result. It might be the first strange result in 20 games but they only localise it to THIS game and often don't view it as being 1 result out of several thousand spread out over 20 games "Outliers" as they are called stick in the human mind since it is organised to see patterns and both rejects and remembers outliers far more effectively than "normal" results. Its why you remember the one time the sky looked green but don't remember ALL those times when you looked at it when you were young and saw a blue sky. It's all to do with the wiring of the human brain to recognise and take advantage of patterns to cut down on processing time and the fact that the brain has a very powerful "outlier" memory so that it can deal with events which do not fall within the expected pattern stored in the neurons. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Posted December 18, 1999 Share Posted December 18, 1999 It's all to do with the wiring of the human brain to recognise and take advantage of patterns to cut down on processing time and the fact that the brain has a very powerful "outlier" memory so that it can deal with events which do not fall within the expected pattern stored in the neurons. Holy Crap Fionn, what did you say you did for a living? Work for the CIA on memory retention (must say it worked on you very well). Either that, or you have one very impressive (well indexed) library. [This message has been edited by Craig (edited 12-18-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeathome Posted December 19, 1999 Share Posted December 19, 1999 As someone says - sh** happens. Last night I had the tiger wipe all 3 M-18's in a straight open-field shoot out at 800 yds - the M-18's didn't get a single hit in 3 turns!! Obviously Wittman was in the Tiger in this game!! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted December 19, 1999 Share Posted December 19, 1999 Craig, I could tell you what I do but then, unfortunately, I'd have to kill you. If you saw my books you'd know that indexing is one thing I haven't learned . I just have a good memory ( up to 15 digits repeated backwards .. try it, its tough to do given that your brain stores no more than 3 to 5 packets of info at most times ) ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cueball Posted December 19, 1999 Share Posted December 19, 1999 I've seen it happen only once. I had a Stug moving "fast" from cover to cover in Chance Encounter. Suddenly, a Sherman wandered into line of sight, a couple hundred meters directly in front of the Stug. Instead of stopping and firing, the Stug's gun adjusted a little and it fired on the run, disabling the Sherman. Never seen it happen since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardb Posted December 19, 1999 Share Posted December 19, 1999 I'm one of the guys that complains about the AI when it has a seldom stroke of luck but doesn't give it another thought when I do the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted December 19, 1999 Share Posted December 19, 1999 Howard, it's nice to see I'm not the only one with that mindset DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Posted December 19, 1999 Share Posted December 19, 1999 Aw heck, I can do this Fionn. Just send me the 15 numbers, and I'll send them back to you right away in reverse (or any order) hehehe. On the actual topic though, I have seen Stugs, Shermans and Hellcats make these shots on the fly. The law of averages does come into play here, as I have played these scenarios at least 100 times each. Oh yeah, how do I make those nifty quote lines in a msg.? [This message has been edited by Craig (edited 12-19-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted December 19, 1999 Share Posted December 19, 1999 Craig, Here's one for you. Last night I was playing Riesberg as the Germans. Both 88's slammed round after round into one Sherman (12 total hits)... every single one bounced. I thought only the Americans used paint shells Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted December 19, 1999 Share Posted December 19, 1999 That was one of the 75+s right? ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted December 19, 1999 Share Posted December 19, 1999 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>mostly they just explode thank you<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually... no. Just a garden variety Sherman... really pissed me off at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted December 20, 1999 Share Posted December 20, 1999 Sorry Fionn... wasn't paying attention to what i was pasting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted December 20, 1999 Share Posted December 20, 1999 LOL. You must just be damned unlucky Dan.. A Sherman 75 (normal) should get nice and toasty. OTOH I had one Sherman be missed by 4 schrecks and 4 StuG shots (all with about a 50% hit rate) in a game of Chance Encounter against SS Panzerleader. I was jinxed. Sometimes you just get a run of bad luck ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supertanker Posted December 20, 1999 Share Posted December 20, 1999 I've seen a couple of great shots, and also seen Shermans hold up to 88 fire against the odds. To me, these bits of uncertainty are what make a great game, and they also make the great stories we all tell to each other (or bore our wives with). Heck, I remember back in High School, playing Squad Leader (just after Anvil of Victory came out), I fired a 75mm recoiless at a moving JagdTiger at maximum range (a desperation move to stop it from going over to stomp on some other poor units). My opponent laughed at the very idea, until I rolled snake eyes for the hit, a "1" to get the critical, and then snake eyes again for the kill. My opponent was shocked with disbelief, but he accepted it as the fortunes of war, and I've got lots of miles out of the story. I expect CM to give me some new bit of luck to talk about, and so far the extraordinary feats do not seem out of line with my experiences with good board games. ------------------ Brad "Supertanker" Wohlenberg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted December 20, 1999 Share Posted December 20, 1999 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>LOL. You must just be damned unlucky Dan<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hell, it can swing either way. Tonight... one hull down StuG... 5 burning Shermans... Chance Encounter. Yes!!! I finally figured out how to get StuGs hull down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted December 20, 1999 Share Posted December 20, 1999 Well, are you going to share with the others? DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted December 20, 1999 Share Posted December 20, 1999 The actual method has been posted before (by Fionn I believe). It just took awhile before the instructions and what i was doing clicked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted December 20, 1999 Share Posted December 20, 1999 Aye, my instructions do work BUT everyone has a different "click point". A click point is that point in time where all the theory and learning "click" and you actually not only theoretically understand what is going on but also are able to do it yourself. I've managed to get three Shermans against SS_Panzerleader with one nicely placed StuG. Hmm, might be a candidate for the heroes section. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stabsfeldwebel Posted December 21, 1999 Share Posted December 21, 1999 have to agree with fionn, this prob was a 1 in a million. I myself have a movie up at combathq of a zook shot, that on the first shot from 196m away hit it, amazing shot, probably wouldn't happen again in a hundred games. Just one of those things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted December 21, 1999 Share Posted December 21, 1999 Aye in one game a tank was missed by 8 50% tank and schreck shots in a row until finally a StuG reversed into his LOS, turned, got a quick shot off and penetrated the Sherman. The Sherman was a 75+ so not only should the StuG not have fired first (since the Sherman was trakcing it for a while) BUT the StuG probably shouldn't have penetrated. However, it did and killed it. You really get to see how luck can totally change a game in CM ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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