Nitpick with the demo

[Imperial Sardaukar]

First off, let me just say that I've jumped off the deep end with this game and bought the CMBN+Commonwealth bundle and the 2.0 upgrade. I want to give this game a fair try so I've bought the entire thing so that I can have a look at **everything** CMBN has to offer, then make up my mind about it.

I had a little LOL when I read the "no return policy" of Battlefront. I completely understand where they're coming from and I have nothing but respect for the company, however, I have to say that the demo leaves something to be desired.

As a demo, it does absolutely nothing with regards to introducing a newbie to wargaming. The included "training mission" -- Road to Berlin -- which is supposedly "adapted from a tutorial campaign for Beginners" is as much a "training mission" as is throwing a boy into the Pacific ocean 5 miles from any landmass to teach him how to swim. I've looked at the included manual and I am scratching my head as to why the training missions presented in pages 18-32 were not the ones chosen, or at least included.... the Road to Berlin mission is presented in pages 34-36, and seems like a mission-within-a-mission in itself!

Now I understand that this demo may be better suited to other established wargamers who understand the basic principles and can simply try out CMBN to see if it is along the same lines that they would want to play, in terms of game mechanics or era, and that's fine. However, it does a pitiful job of enticing "new blood" to give the genre a try --- if anything, it is highly successful in making potential recruits throw their hands up in the air and go back to playing mind-numbing twitch games. I won't say I'm a wargamer but I've enjoyed games like BattleTech, D&D/Pathfinder, Total War (Rome and Empire I and II), Company of Heroes, and Dawn of War I, so I felt like CMBN was simply a more serious and realistic representation of a real-life event, a more gritty and realistic version of the games I've enjoyed, but even for me, I felt like turning my back on CMBN. It's only the delicious screenshots, after-action reports, and how-to vids on YouTube that kept me thinking of all the fun I could have once I learn the game........

Which I'd have to get the full game to get the full tutorials which I can use with the full manual.

See where I'm going here?

At this point, I've committed myself to the game without being 100% sure whether it is something I really want or if it's just interesting but too deep for me, but I had a bit extra so I'm taking a leap of faith.

So anyway, I'm downloading the 2.0 upgrade now and will install CMBN in a few minutes and just wanted to put that idea out for the devs if they are listening.

And yes, I know most info is buried deeper in the manual. What I'm just saying here is if the full version has the tutorial missions that can ease the learning curve a bit, why not include that instead of presenting a learning CLIFF to beginners and curious newbies that try out the demo?

Okay, 2.0 just finished downloading so I'll stop here and start learning this! Whoohoo!

[womble]

I have to agree. Just the first few tutorials would give newbs a leg up. My fuzzy recollection is that the SF demo had at least one "tutorial" scenario in it, with "how to get in and out of vehicles and hose down some trenches", which really helped me get to grips with the way the game worked for the other demo scenarios.

[The Steppenwulf]

I also think you raise a good point Sardaukar. I have a wargaming friend who was turned off at the demo stage - perhaps because of slightly different reasons but equally as valid. I think some players know what they are looking for in a wargame and when they see it they can see through any other objections - although complexity is rarely one.

All I would say is that where the demo might lack, the manual certainly doesn't. It's one of the most comprehensive game manuals I have ever seen in a game of this complexity. If you are persistent and refer to the manual constantly as you gradually acquaint yourself with the game, you won't find the manual wanting. I promise you'll find yourself playing fluently and possessing a broad understanding of the game in really no time at all. I think you have a point about the newbie experience but when all said and done there's a steep learning curve for any tactical command sim - it's just a part of the course.

[Vanir Ausf B]

On the plus side, the demo does include the black and white printable manual...

[Imperial Sardaukar]

I have a wargaming friend who was turned off at the demo stage - perhaps because of slightly different reasons but equally as valid. I think some players know what they are looking for in a wargame and when they see it they can see through any other objections - although complexity is rarely one.

Like I said, the demo may be fine for other wargamers who play a different type of wargame and simply wish to check what CMBN is all about. However, for that curious gamer who has just heard the term "wargaming" and has seen some cool screenshots or watched a cool tactical video of CMBN gameplay... or for that RTS gamer that is looking for a bit more depth to unit deployment and less "how many clicks per second you can do" type of gameplay... the demo does little for them if not slam the door on their face outright.

Regarding the manual, well, let me say I am very impressed with it, even with my confusion and annoyance regarding the lack of the B&W version in the final 2.0 copy of the game. Just reading the first few pages of the tutorial section, I can see it walks the player through each aspect and just introduces a concept or two then allows the player to test and understand the concepts. However, again, this is useless as the potential-new-wargamer player cannot actually **LEARN** these concepts thru play since the relevant tutorial missions are not included in the demo.

Sure, an argument may be made that he can do/practice these steps in the mission included in the demo, but what I'm saying is why does he have to "make-do" with it if the tutorials do exist in the first place? Bottom line is, the more help we can give the new players or the more accessible the demo is for potential-new-wargamers, I can't see anything but a win-win for all involved.

[Michael Emrys]

Sure, an argument may be made that he can do/practice these steps in the mission included in the demo, but what I'm saying is why does he have to "make-do" with it if the tutorials do exist in the first place? Bottom line is, the more help we can give the new players or the more accessible the demo is for potential-new-wargamers, I can't see anything but a win-win for all involved.

Quite a sensible suggestion and one I hope BFC will keep in mind for future releases. IIRC they did something like that with CMBB, but I can't recall if that was in the demo or only the purchased full version.

Michael

[Vinnart]

I agree that better tutorials with the demo's would be a good improvement in helping new guys learn the game. I have played so many other games that do such a better job in this regard. More hints, and direction in game that are given to the player would be most effective. Reading along with the manual just isn't as interactive, and user friendly.

[Badger73]

I agree that better tutorials with the demo's would be a good improvement in helping new guys learn the game. I have played so many other games that do such a better job in this regard. More hints, and direction in game that are given to the player would be most effective. Reading along with the manual just isn't as interactive, and user friendly.

I agree. I spent three months playing the demo before purchasing the games. I found several YouTube tutorials to be much more helpful than the game materials. I had to see it done before I understood what was said.

I also found these forums themselves to be invaluable instruction aids as well.

@Imperial Sardaukar, you purchased a great wargame but give it a lot of time before satisfying yourself that you understand it very well. Good luck and good gaming!

[Imperial Sardaukar]

Glad to see it's just not me. I've not formed an opinion about this game yet, but a few friends have spoken highly of it that's why I'm giving it a fair trial.

As for "understanding it very well," I'm not worried. I've got a few study sims under my belt although these have been of the naval and aircraft types. I know that good things do not come easy nor quickly.

[Collingwood]

I felt a bit the same the first time I tried the CMBN demo. But then I watched the tutorial linked to here:

http://battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=98844

- and all (or most) was made clear. It really helped me hit the ground running.