Operation Luttich OOB

[Mutunus]

Hi. I am working on an ambitious campaign following the German offensive that attempted to recapture Avranches and cut off the third US army advancing towards Brittany after operation cobra. It was the largest tank battle of the Normandy campaign and (at least it was to me) almost entirely forgotten. I'm hoping to create a 1 to 1 representation of units, i.e. I want every tank and soldier that took part in the offensive in reality to be represented in the game. I am however struggling to find a detailed list of the OOB, especially for the Germans. I have a full list of which divisions and KG took part in the battle but not details of their strength. Many units, like the 2nd SS Panzer for example, were in a very sorry state. I just don't know quite how sorry. Rather than me investing in one of the very few books detailing the campaign I was hoping some of you guys might be able to provide some links or snippets of information. Thanks in advance.

[Blazing 88's]

Hi. I am working on an ambitious campaign following the German offensive that attempted to recapture Avranches and cut off the third US army advancing towards Brittany after operation cobra. It was the largest tank battle of the Normandy campaign and (at least it was to me) almost entirely forgotten. I'm hoping to create a 1 to 1 representation of units, i.e. I want every tank and soldier that took part in the offensive in reality to be represented in the game. I am however struggling to find a detailed list of the OOB, especially for the Germans. I have a full list of which divisions and KG took part in the battle but not details of their strength. Many units, like the 2nd SS Panzer for example, were in a very sorry state. I just don't know quite how sorry. Rather than me investing in one of the very few books detailing the campaign I was hoping some of you guys might be able to provide some links or snippets of information. Thanks in advance.

Good stuff Mutunus.

Here Is some info:

http://warandgame.com/2011/11/21/operation-luttich-redux/

http://www.battleofnormandytours.com/photos-op-luttich.html

[Rokko]

Haha, I once wanted to do the same thing, even before the CW module, but as usual I lost interest somewhere along the road, probably when I lost my saved Google Earth data (for map creation).

But let's see:

One the German side there are essentially 5 divisions involved (though the term division can't be taken to literally anymore by that date).

In the North you have 116th PD fighting around Cherence-le-Roussel.

60. Panzergrenadier-Regiment being the furthest to the North.

Then there is a strong Kampfgruppe Schake (Schäke?) attacking towards Le-Mesnil-Adelee (actually they're the ones who advance the most).

Kampfgruppe Schake (he was CO of 304. PG-Regiment of 2nd PD) consisted of (at least):

I./304. PzGr-Reg.

Panzerjägerabteilung 38 (of 2nd Panzer-Division)

I./Panzer-Regiment 24 (essentially the Panthers of 116th PD)

SS-Panzeraufklärungsabteilung 1 LAH

As you can see these are very heterogen groups which are strongly intermixed.

Further South where the big battle for Saint-Barthelemy happened there were

units from 2nd and 1st SS PD.

From the North you have attacking Panzer IV's from II./Panzer-Regiment 3 and Grenadiers from PzGr-Reg. 2 (I'm fairly sure at least their 5th Company took part in the battle).

From the South there were Panthers from I./SS-Pz-Reg 1 (the batallion was assigned to 2nd PD at that time) and SS Grenadiers from 1st SS PD.

Some Eye-witness accounts speak of German halftracks involved, which gives a hint at which batallions from the many possible PzGr-Regiments could have been involved.

Even further South at Mortain and Hill 314 there were 2nd SS PD and 17th SS PzGr-Division. Note that at the time the CO of 17th SS was also commanding the 2nd SS PD since their old CO had been killed during the Cobra breakout.

I don't have too much information on those two.

All I remember is that 17th SS was split up in 3 Kampfgruppen.

Kampfgruppe Fick (sic)

Kampfgruppe Ulrich

and the 3rd one of which I can't find the name right now. On of these KG's was mostly made up by artillerists of 17th SS fighting as infantry.

Around Abbaye Blanche you have "Der Führer" and "Deutschland" PzGr-Regiments of 2nd SS PD.

Later in the battle, elements from 10th SS PD became also involved around Barenton south of Mortain.

As you can see finding out the divisions involved is mostly pointless, since they are so badly shot up, widely dispersed and heavily mixed in strange ragtag Kampfgruppe-formations.

I've been using the book "Victory at Mortain" by Mark J. Reardon as a source, but that book has a lot of problems (in my eyes) and often deals with the German side only very generally (at regimental level with no coherent OOB at any place). So lack of structure is the greatest problem with it.

If you for instance wonder what the heck the Panzer IV's of 1st SS did during the campaign, the book won't give you the answer and never found out either.

So finding out the German OOB is a huge hastle and I've never completed it.

I believe there is someone over at Axis History forums who is very well informed on that matter but I never contacted him.

What's also rather unsatisfactory about recreating Lüttich for CMBN is the lack of dense fog, which had a large impact on the battle and the lacking effectiveness of American 76mm ATGs against Panthers at VERY close ranges (they'll fire at the glacis instead of aming at hull-MG openings as they did at Saint-Barthelemy).

But I hope I could help you a bit.

[Mr.X]

Hey,

I´d like to leave a short comment, too: It is absolutely unrealistic, to make a campaign with such a huge background. Like Rokko said, "Operation Luettich" was a German Offensive over several days with a large number of different units. Have you read the battle-History of the 116. Panzer-Division? Only about its units and their action during this period, you could make a campaign of 40-50 battles. So, if you want to finish such a work as a campaign for CMBN is, then choose a small company-sized unit for your work. You will see, this is much easier and you will get a better result. Otherwise, you will loose your motivation sooner or later.

Regards

Frank

[Blazing 88's]

... Hey let the lad do what he intended to do. Myself I like the big ass battles... break it down afterwards. wink wink.

Just kidding, take the advice of the vet. scenario designers... I only play these things.

[Rokko]

Yeah doing everything is not a good approach, to much for one person to do and doesn't make a lot of sense actually. The guys fighting on the northern wing didn't have a lot to do with the guys fighting at, say, L'Abbaye Blanche.

My own approach was much more confined actually. I planned to portray the battles of Kampfgruppe Schäke on the northern wing and their comrades further south fighting for Saint-Barthelemy. These two groups were mutually dependent and pretty close to each other. In fact, KG Schäke couldn't advance further not because of stiff enemy opposition, there was hardly any actually, but because their comrades in Saint-Barthelemy took so long to take the village and were hit so heavily they couldn't advance afterwards without reorganizing (also the fog wore off and Allied CAS restricted movement). KG Schäke was then counterattacked by American reinforcements and without help from the rest of 2nd PD and hat to retreat after heavy losses including their CO.

That was pretty much the "interesting" part of OP Lüttich. All that happened on 6th and 7th August (or was it 7th and 8th I can't remember).

All that followed was mostly pointless defensive fighting without any chance to achieve anything but further attrition to German forces.

But then again, the whole offensive didn't have any chance of succes and only helped to seal the fate of 7th Army more quickly I'd say.

[JasonC]

Methinks Operation Goodwood was a larger armor battle. Just saying.

On the composition of Schake, it really wasn't all that varied. It was just taking the freshest and thus strongest Panther battalion in theater - 116th hadn't been involved in the fighting at all to that point, really, being in army reserve until the counterattack - coupled with pretty much all available SPW infantry. Which was 1 battalion of PzGdrs and 2 of armored recon. Outside of Panzer Lehr, PDs of the era didn't have full PzGdr regiments in SPWs, but this ad hoc tasking effectively made one.

Allied air power intervened famously in this fighting, in part because the Allies knew all about it ahead of time from Ultra intercepts. The pilots also famously overclaimed, and after action surveys on the ground show they didn't destroy anywhere near the count of full tanks they claimed. But the SPWs are a different story - those were highly vulnerable to tac air. In fact, strikes that did hit SPWs but claimed them as tanks are the likely cause of much of the pilot's overclaiming.

There were three other major interventions on the Allied side. Several SP TD battalions ran to the action in precisely the way the famously derided McNair doctrine called for, and it worked exactly as he had hoped, successfully massing army level AT power right opposite the enemy break-through attempt. Second, a full US armor division flanked the attempt from the south and counterattacked into it. Which was more costly but did create pressure and shift the initiative, with the Germans soon rightly more concerned about how they were getting themselves surrounded than about reaching the sea and cutting off any Americans.

And third, corps level artillery assets intervened in a big way, with excellent spotting by bypassed US infantry division elements holding out on hills and other tough terrain spots in the break-in area, after the initial break-in had succeeded, and from the ever present piper cubs in the skies. These proceeded to drench the entire effort in a heavy and non stop rain of 155mm howitzer fire, shredding the infantry and transport trying to stay up with the tanks.

It wasn't just operationally that the attempt was a forlorn hope. Tactically it was checkmated several times over within 48 hours, and in ways that bypassed any concern about the superiority of the Panther as a battle tank.

[Boche]

Im half done with my campaign covering the same period. its not 100 percent historical but it works.

dont steal battles from me now!

[Rokko]

Methinks Operation Goodwood was a larger armor battle. Just saying.

On the composition of Schake, it really wasn't all that varied. It was just taking the freshest and thus strongest Panther battalion in theater - 116th hadn't been involved in the fighting at all to that point, really, being in army reserve until the counterattack - coupled with pretty much all available SPW infantry. Which was 1 battalion of PzGdrs and 2 of armored recon. Outside of Panzer Lehr, PDs of the era didn't have full PzGdr regiments in SPWs, but this ad hoc tasking effectively made one.

Allied air power intervened famously in this fighting, in part because the Allies knew all about it ahead of time from Ultra intercepts. The pilots also famously overclaimed, and after action surveys on the ground show they didn't destroy anywhere near the count of full tanks they claimed. But the SPWs are a different story - those were highly vulnerable to tac air. In fact, strikes that did hit SPWs but claimed them as tanks are the likely cause of much of the pilot's overclaiming.

There were three other major interventions on the Allied side. Several SP TD battalions ran to the action in precisely the way the famously derided McNair doctrine called for, and it worked exactly as he had hoped, successfully massing army level AT power right opposite the enemy break-through attempt. Second, a full US armor division flanked the attempt from the south and counterattacked into it. Which was more costly but did create pressure and shift the initiative, with the Germans soon rightly more concerned about how they were getting themselves surrounded than about reaching the sea and cutting off any Americans.

And third, corps level artillery assets intervened in a big way, with excellent spotting by bypassed US infantry division elements holding out on hills and other tough terrain spots in the break-in area, after the initial break-in had succeeded, and from the ever present piper cubs in the skies. These proceeded to drench the entire effort in a heavy and non stop rain of 155mm howitzer fire, shredding the infantry and transport trying to stay up with the tanks.

It wasn't just operationally that the attempt was a forlorn hope. Tactically it was checkmated several times over within 48 hours, and in ways that bypassed any concern about the superiority of the Panther as a battle tank.

As usual, your input is makes for a very interesting read and is highly appreciated!

Which was the second recon batallion in KG Schake? Reardon only mentions the LAH recon batallion.

Given that units from KG Schake came from 3 different divisions (2nd PD, 116th PD and 1st SS PD) and the Panther batallion was actually not from the same regiment as 116th Panzer IV batallion I considered calling this KG mixed or varied justified, at least in that aspect.

I think any superiority the Panther tank had didn't play any role in the first day of the offensive.

Very thick fog caused any fighting to happen at point blank range (American ATG gunners supposedly aimed at muzzle flash of the Panthers' hull MGs in Saint-Barthelemy). Panthers were KO'd from the front, from the rear, from the sides, often by bazookas. Fighting must have been beyond chaotic, and they pushed right into the village.

In fact the LAH Panther batallion suffered horrendous casualties during the attack on that single infantry batallion in Saint-Bart.

They were totally uninformed with the terrain and had absolutely no time to prepare their attack. Actually the whole attack had to be delayed because the Panther batallion arrived late at their destination and once they had arrived they were thrown right into the thick of it.

The lack of corpswide reconaissance and artillery coordination was another issue that hampered the Germans' efforts.

Also the terrain was much more hilly than in northern Normandy, migitating the Panther's range advantage even more. I think in my unfinished Saint-Barthelemy map height differences were some 60m heighest to lowest, I think I'll upload it for those who'd like to see for themselves.

Interestingly, the Panzer IV's from 2nd PD made a much more effective contribution to the capture of Saint-Bart than the SS Panthers.

http://www.file-upload.net/download-6718440/StBart_sunkenRoadXXX.btt.html

[Mutunus]

Thanks for the responses guys. Looks like I may have to invest in a book or two to get some specific numbers on those KG. Yes, I'm aware it will be a very large undertaking, but this will be a long term project which likely won't see any kind of release for some time. I'm not intending on portraying every small engagement around a farmhouse or hamlet, only the larger more significant battles. These will play out on 2x2km maps with regimental sized forces. I have st barthelemy completed, and have begun work on mortain. Do you have any aerial maps of the area prior to luttich, Rokko? I'm relying on google earth for terrain gradient, but can't find any decent aerial maps of the surrounding towns and villages. The battle for st barthelemy begins at 6am and in game this is almost complete darkness. This and light fog makes for a spotting range of about 150m. Not quite the pea soup the battle really took place in, but visibility is still very limited.

I wanted to create the campaign units file so I could begin deploying the allies into defensive positions and test the maps as I completed them. The best online source I found for the german oob was this post at feldgrau. There is unfortunately no mention of the strength of the units. Anyway, I want the campaign to be roughly historically accurate, but having the german oob exactly correct isn't a priority. I don't want divisional strength to be off by several battalions, but a missing or additional company here or there wouldn't be a big deal. The numbers of tanks and where they were located is important though and will likely need some research. Of course luttich was a fairly hopeless undertaking to begin with, which is one of the reasons why I chose it. It will be a very (impossibly?) difficult and challenging campaign to beat.

[Rokko]

I only 1947 aerial photography and maybe some old maps I've found. There is a website dedicated to the 30th US ID (something with oldhickory I believe) that has a nice stash of original reports, maps, etc. from the battle, too.

As for unit strengths, I'd think the Americans were mostly at full strength (I believe the 30th ID was completely fresh when they took the sector from 1st ID).

For the Germans I think I had 80-90% for unit strength, with only the units involved that are actually mentioned somewhere.

I could be totally wrong on this but I could imagine that when losses accumulated they would savage batallions to keep other batallions (of the same regiment) at a somewhat effective strength, or maybe savage 1st and 2nd company to get men for 3rd company or something like that.

That might explain why sometimes you read something like "II. and III. Abteilung of 'Der Führer' regiment attack XY" but nowhere anything is said about what the hell I. Abteilung was doing these days, although it might have just been kept in reserve i dunno.

As for AFV numbers Reardon's book might give you some ideas.

Mostly information is given in the form of "PFC Smith spotted 15-20 enemy AFVs on the road to XY at 0625" or something and you get some idea how many vehicles could have been involved.

As for 17th SS I quote:

"SS-Panzergrenadier Division 17, attached to Das Reich, arriver in its assembly area as planned two thousand yards east of Hill 314. One panzergrenadier battalion, however, had remained in Vire to assist II Fallschirmjäger Korps. The remaining units of Panzergrenadier Division 17 were reorganized into two ad hoc formations: Kampfgruppe Fick, which consisted of several understrength infantry battalions, some engineers, and the divisional reconaissance battalion, and Kampfgruppe Ernst, which was composed of divisional antiaircraft and artillery units. Because most of the division's guns had been lost in previous battles, Kampfgruppe Ernst boasted a significant number of artilleryman fighting as infantry. SS-Panzergrenadier Division 17, reinforced by a company of assault guns provided by Das Reich expected to quickly secure Hill 314.

SS-Panzergrenadier Division 17 was also assigned to provide a third battlegroup commanded by Hauptsturmführer Karl Ulrich of II Abteilung, SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment 37, to reinforce the efforts Weidinger's Der Führer regiment. Kampfgruppe Ulrich was tasked to secure Hill 285 northwest of Mortain, and eight Pzkfw IVs were detached from SS-Panzer Regiment 2 to support it"

p.95

As I just read a bit again in the book I find that the battle around Mortain is described in much greater detail than the engagements further to the North and I'd definately recommend it for that part.