King Tiger

[PzKpfw 1]

s.Pz.Abt. 503 (FHH) Tank Losses (only Tiger tanks):*

B = Burnt out.

C - Captured.

D = destroyed by crew.

FM = Factory Maintenance.

KO = knocked out.

SI = Self ignition.

U = Unrepairable.

1943:

09.01.43 - 2, Ko. 18 in inventory.

10.01.43 - 2, FM. 16 in inventory.

17.01.43 - 1, D. 15 in inventory.

22.02.43 - 1, KO. 23 in inventory.

10.03.43 - 2, FM. 21 in inventory.

10.07.43 - 2, KO. 43 in inventory.

12.07.43 - 1, KO. 42 in inventory.

14.07.43 - 1, KO. 41 in inventory.

23.07.43 - 3, KO. 38 in inventory.

13.08.43 - 1, KO. 37 in inventory.

24.08.43 - 1, KO. 48 in inventory.

29.08.43 - 4, KO. 2 in inventory.

31.08.43 - 1, KO. 45 in inventory. (KO'd by Stug)

06.09.43 - 1, KO. 44 in inventory.

13.09.43 - 1, D. 43 in inventory.

30.09.43 - 4, FM. 39 in inventory.

30.10.43 - 4, KO. 35 in inventory.

13.11.43 - 7, KO. 28 in invntory.

20.12.43 - 3, FM. 25 in inventory.

1944:

03.01.44 - 1, SI. 69 in inventory.

27.01.44 - 1, KO. 68 in inventory. (KO'd by PzKpfw V)

29.01.44 - 2, D. 66 in inventory.

12.02.44 - 4, KO. 62 in inventory.

15.02.44 - 1, KO. 61 in inventory.

16.02.44 - 1, KO. 60 in inventory. (KO'd by T-34)

18.02.44 - 4, D. 56 in inventory.

25.02.43 - 8, U. 57 in inventory.

09.03.44 - 2, KO. 62 in inventory.

14.03.44 - 1, KO. 61 in inventory.

15.03.44 - 1, D. 60 in inventory.

21.03.44 - 1, D. 65 in inventory.

22.03.44 - 4, D. 61 in inventory.

29.03.44 - 1, KO. 60 in inventory.

30.03.44 - 3, KO, 21 D. 36 in inventory.

04.04.44 - 1, D. 35 in inventory.

05.04.44 - 5, KO. 29 in inventory.

22.04.44 - 22, KO/D. 7 in inventory.

06.07.44 - 1, U. 44 in inventory.

18.07.44 - 13, KO. 32 in inventory.

01.08.44 - 3, FM. 29 in inventory.

12.08.44 - 1, C. 13 in inventory.

Aug.44 - 11, D. 2 in inventory.

01.11.44 - 1, B. 46 in inventory.

02.11.44 - 2, 1,D. 1,KO. 44 in inventory. (KO'd by AT gun).

03.11.44 - 1, KO. 43 in inventory. (KO'd by AT gun).

05.11.44 - 2, FM. 41 in inventory.

20.11.44 - 1, D. 40 in inventory.

06.12.44 - 2, KO. 39 in inventory.

07.12.44 - 10, D. 29 in inventory.

08.12.44 - 1, KO. 28 in inventory. (KO'd by AT gun).

23.12.44 - 1, KO. 27 in inventory. (KO'd by AT gun).

24.12.44 - 1, D. 26 in inventory.

09.01.44 - 1, KO. 25 in inventory. (KO'd by ISU-152).

11.01.44 - 2, KO. 23 in inventory.

1945:

01.02.45 - 1, D. 22 in inventory.

17.02.45 - 1, KO. 21 in inventory.

11.04.45 - 1, KO. 25 in inventory.

26.04.45 - 1, KO. No inventory data.

Apr.45 - 12, D. 12 in inventory. (mostly D only data given).

May.45 - 12, D. 12 in inventory. (again mostly D only data given).

Total s.Pz.Abt. 503(FHH) Tiger losses were, 252. with 49% Destroyed by crew, 45% Lost in action, & 6% to other causes.

*See: Schneider Wolfgang. Tigers in Combat vol 1. pp. 226,227.

Regards, John Waters

[JasonC]

winklereid - the problem with all such reports is they never actually tell you when or why the tank was truly lost. Blown up by crew doesn't happen because the crew is mad at their tank and in a fit of pique, decides to drop a thermite grenade into it. Abandoned doesn't happen to tanks that can drive themselves away and aren't surrounded by the enemy.

But if a tank is a non operational hunk of metal waiting for epic repair efforts for the nth time and those are not complete-able, and the reason it needs them is the big 122mm hole in the turret side and all the shambles inside half the turret, well, then yeah when the front moves enough they will leave said hulk behind and may drop said thermite grenade inside on their way out. But what really killed the tank was the 122mm AP round that went through the left side of the turret and put it in the "long term repair" category in the first place.

Or maybe, instead, the tank broke its final drive trying to get up a cutting and can't deliver any power to the left track, and went into repair for that reason. And it will still only be TWOed as "destroyed by crew" when or if it is finally abandoned. In the meantime the crew can babysit the immobilized wreck for months on end and it won't be counted as lost. Maybe they got it back to a vehicle yard and have spent the last 2 months cannabalizing it for spares to get other tanks working again. It will still be recorded as not yet a TWO, until finally it is merely "abandoned" or "destroyed by crew".

The only real operational question is, instead, *when did the tank leaving operational status for the last time*? And what caused it to leave operational status, that last time? A tank that makes the trip to the repair categories and back out again wasn't really TWO because actual later use was gotten out of it. But a tank that goes into any repair category and never makes it back to operational, is already TWO in every real way, and only isn't for bookkeeping fictions and falsified hopes. The real loss occurs when it leaves running status never to return, and the real cause of loss is whatever put in into the shops, that time.

As for claims, I once added up German AFV kill claims by type of weapon, and I got a total about 4 times as high as the tanks the Allies actually lost. Claims are not kills. The only record of actually lost tanks is the previous (left running status and did not return), reported by the side that lost it. Nothing said about what the enemy supposedly lost means diddly squat.

[PzKpfw 1]

The Werksat companies are a good start any German tank lost, or in need of repair goes to them 1st, then they decide what code to attach for repair etc. & they record every lost tanks fate by date, farhrgestell (chassis No) #, cause.

Ie, s.H.Pz.Abt.502 maintance Co reports on lost E (E = Tiger 1 or II)

24.06.44 - Fgst Nr.250 232: Near Voshchinino. Hit in turret by artiilery and assault gun fire and disabled. Recovery not possible. Destroyed by friendly fire.

26.06.44 - Fgst. Nr.250 774: Near Voshchinino. Disabled by artillery fire. Could not be recovered; destroyed by German tank fire.

26.07.44 - Fgst. Nr.250 259: Northwast of Dunaburg. Burned out following hit by 152 cm assault gun. Penetrations through driver's vison slit and at lip of gun mantlet.

Then the reports on Tigers recovered for repair Ie, :

24.26.06.44 - Fgst.Nr.250 222: Ostrov-Sujevo heights. Immobilized by damage to left drive sprocket caused by artillery fire. Additional direct hit on turret roof. Damage: left reduction gearwith drive sprocket ripped away. Turret roof dented in two places. Thirty centimeter rip in turret armour plate. Gun mantlet damaged by fragments, other minor damage.

26.06.44 - Fgst.Nr.250 234: Ostrov-Sujevo heights. Artillery shell ricocheted off turret fifteen centimeters below the top of turret in line with the commander's cupola. Hit by 152 cm round from Russian assault gun on front of the hull left of driver's visor. Hit by gunfire from strafeing Russian aircrat. Damage: Turet armour plate damaged: deepest penetration 23mm. Various weld seams cracked. Emergency escape hatch damaged.

Regards, John Waters

[PzKpfw 1]

The problem is this ppl want 'runner' totals Ie, my post on theatre operational readiness. On the dates listed those were the tanks operational or as the Germans termed it 'battle ready'. tanks in the repair catagory of S (short term) L (long term) & R or replacement vehichles in transit are NOT generaly included in the Abt or Div reports. Now tanks in the S or L catagories were included in grand totals ie,

German AFV return 15.12.44 for the Ardennes.

Stug - 598, of which 410 were operational, of which 188 were in repair cat S & L or replacement transit.

PzKpfw IV - 503 of which 309 were operational 194 were S, L, T.

PzKpfw V - 471, of which 336 were operational 135 were S, L, T.

PzKpfw VI - 123 of which 79 were operational 44 were S, L, T.

Total AFV in inventory = 1,695 with 1,216 operational 'battle ready' & 476 AFV in S, L, T.

The problem is German operational reports @ the Abt level and war diaries rarely include more then the inventory & battle ready totals to get the reports with these daily one must have access to higher level returns such as found in the Files of the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. (RH 10) from BA-MA Freiburg as well as from the T78 series archived at NARA. The Germans also more often then not did not include catagory L or long term repairs in the Abt or Div reports those are found in other rolls, that require multiple searches. Ie. heres a report from KTB Pz.Aok.5 on II. SS. Pz.Regt 10:

09.07.44:

Ops (No letter) : 1 B2 (Bef.Pz)- 27 C2 (Pz.IV)- 25 K2 (StuG)- 18 P (Pak.40)

Short maintenance (Letter S) : 2 B2 - 3 C2 - 5 K2

long maintenance (Letter T) : 6 C2 - 5 K2

An example of German codes:

B2 = Befs III Lg

C1= PzKpfw IV Kz

C2= PzKpfw IV Lg

FC2= Befs IV Lg

FD= Befs PzKpfw V

D OR D1= Berg PzKpfw V

E= Tiger

J= Brummbar

K2= StuG III Lg

N= JgPz IV

Q= PAK43

Then theirs the fact the Germans changed the codeing often. Anyway you can see the hurdles on researching this subject. As we see The Germans used code letters for types of AFV or wpn. Thats another reason ppl who study this seriously trust very few authors as most do not get the data correctdue to the digging involved just to get the data. Jentz, Zetterling and a few others are trusted because they use primary data & have the patience & knowledge to dig it out.

Concerning tanks in L catagory many never did return to their unit and ended up being lost to enemy action when the repair collection points depots were overrun ie, re-appeared on the battlefield and were or lost during the retreat, or were never repaired, and written off, cannibalized for parts, etc. Ie, Pz.Abt 51 & 52 had 58 PzKpfw V written off July - August 43 that never retuned from the repair depot. Another exmple was 07.03.44 when PR 23, & s.H.Pz.Abt 503 both lost tanks in L @ Potash Station when it was overun. PR.23 lost 18 PzKpfw V, & 503 lost 21 PzKpfw VI.

Regards, John Waters

[winkelried]

thank's jason & pzkpfw1 - my reasoning is, that despite that the tiger II was developed quite in a hurry and couldn't iron out all the toothing problems, the tank was better than its press. i often found "urban legends" to obscure the reality.

so for instance when we look at pzkpwf1's figures (thanks a lot for this!!!) for the schw. Panzerabteilung 503 the statement you make at the end is quite typical for this kind of "legends":

Total s.Pz.Abt. 503(FHH) Tiger losses were, 252. with 49% Destroyed by crew, 45% Lost in action, & 6% to other causes.

which is absolutely correct and reads - 50/50 between combat losses and self destruction. BUT the statement does say nothing on the quality of the vehicles! BECAUSE more than 66 of the 85 tigers destroyed by the troops were destroyed in a few catastrophic events:

• 21 were lost when the abteilung had to break out from a cauldron during the Proskurov-Chernovtsy Offensive Operation (4 March-17 April 1944) and the Uman-Botosani Offensive Operation (5 March-17 April 1944)
  
• 22 (marked as killed/destroyed) were lost when the unit had to get out of Hube's pocket (Kamenets-Podolsky Pocket)
  
• another 11 were destroyed by own troops at the end of the Falaise pocket
  
• 10 were destroyed when Budapest was overrun
  
• then the last 24 were lost in the endgame when the unit was overrun and when it destroyed its running equipment not to fall into soviet hands.
  

So when we factor out these losses we get a completely different statement:

68% of the remaining losses were KOed tanks, and just 13% were destroyed by own troops (compared to 11% sent back to the factory - probably those with the 122mm holes Jason).

Figures which do not look to bad IMHO for a vehicle of this complexity.

[PzKpfw 1]

Good % breakdown Winkelried. Below is more on the Tiger Abt losses.

s.H.Pz.Abt 502 (511):

Losses = 107, 82% Lost in action, 13% Destroyed by crew, 5% Other causes.

s.H.Pz.Abt 504:

Losses = 109, 27% Lost in action, 73% Destroyed by crew.

s.H.Pz.Abt 505:

Losses = 126, 37% Lost in action, 49% Destroyed by crew, 14% Other causes.

s.H.Pz.Abt 506:

Losses = 179, 34% Lost in action, 65% Destroyed by crew, 1% Other causes.

s.H.Pz.Abt 507:

Losses = 104, 41% Lost in action, 55% Destroyed by crew, 4% Other causes.

s.H.Pz.Abt 508:

Losses = 78, 19% Lost in Action, 59% Destroyed by crew, 22% Other causes.

s.H.pz.Abt 509:

Losses = 120, 63% Lost in action, 33% Destroyed by crew, 4% Other causes.

Regards, John Waters

[Sgt Schultz]

What really truly matters is the mechanical reliability, which is 100% in each and every battle I have used them in.

They are fine examples German pixelated engineering.

And each and every one I purchase shows up for duty as well.

To tell you the truth though, I would rather use JagdPanthers every time. No nooks and crannies to grab a round. Just a big slab o' steel.

[Georgie]

What really truly matters is the mechanical reliability, which is 100% in each and every battle I have used them in.

They are fine examples German pixelated engineering.

And each and every one I purchase shows up for duty as well.

To tell you the truth though, I would rather use JagdPanthers every time. No nooks and crannies to grab a round. Just a big slab o' steel.

Hmm, take note of this BF. Maybe we need a little "failure" simulation in the game. I would think that the KT transmission didn't always fail just during deployment but also during the actual battle when the drivers weren't so careful. It would also add another layer to force selection. Maybe you don't want 2 KT and would go for the 6 IV s.

[c3k]

This has been brought up a lot. I understand the theory goes like this: if the tank would've broken down, it'll do it during the approach march. Plus, the "nerfing" of a force made up of a few big tanks due to random breakdowns would have a deleterious game effect. "Hey, 2 of my 4 KT's broke down in the first 2 minutes of the game. BF.C, please fix or somefink!!"

To change this to a data-driven issue, how may KT's mechanically failed, not due to enemy fire, while in an active firefight? Are there a lot of anecdotes? Have the few surviving drivers written memoirs titled, "My KT broke down on me in battle. Again."?

I'm not saying this shouldn't be looked at, I'm just saying it should not be opinion driven.

Ken

[PzKpfw 1]

I've never read any, of them breaking down in combat. unless it was from battle damage or a thrown track. I have read some on running out of fuel, but for the most part the breakdowns were on route to their deployment. Or after not being allowed to do routine maintance during sustained operations.

The only other reports i have seen concerning Tiger II Abt, concern haveing ample fuel & ammo but no replacement patrs & this was during the fighting in Hungary at the end of the war. A part let go their was no fixing the tank in those ops.

regards, John Waters

[ArgusEye]

A very large proportion of Tiger B breakdowns (which also seems to have been a big problem for Tiger E and Panther) was due to final drive failures. The final drive is basically the part that takes place on and within the bolted-on bulge under the drive sprocket. These were heavy-duty reduction gearings. Another part of the final drive was the sprocket tooth ring, mounted on the sprocket wheel with bolts. Failure of the final drive -according to the Inspekteur der Panzertruppen- came mostly from wear of the reduction gearing, due in large part to substandard metal. This means that you don't have -per se- sudden unexpected failures due to overloading the drive, but tanks breaking down on long road marches when the gears get too worn or too hot. Operational failures more than tactical failures, if you will. The tank was engineered to allow relatively quick exchange of the drive in the field, so this can be said to be expected and 'accepted' behaviour.

Having said this, I have read soldiers accounts of Tigers shearing off the teeth from their sprockets in sudden loads, like braking hard on a downslope. Whether this is true or not, that would be annoying on the battlefield if it happened - although it would be a quick thing to fix.

[PzKpfw 1]

Below give a good idea of maintance problems with the Tiger E from s.H.Pz.Abt 502s Werksatt Cos. Dated 22.06.44 - 21.08.44:

Numbers of Vehichles and Equptment Restored to Service.:

1st workshop Plt.

PzKpfw VI - 38

Tractors - 17

Trucks - 9

Armoured cars - 24

Motorcycles - 10

IInd Workshop Plt:

PzKpfw VI - 64

Tractors - 24

Trucks - 26

Armoured cars - 24

Ordinance Shop:

Small arms, 8 machine guns, 11, cannon 21.

Radio Shop - Radio equptment in PzKpfw VI: 80.

Recovery Platoon: Recovery operations: 144.

Number of Reairs:

- To tank transmissions 39.

- To tank motors: 45.

- To tank running gear 71.

- Welding repairs as a result of shot damage 1.

Repairs carried out by the repair echelon of the Headquarters Company:

Vehichles returned to service:

PzKpfw VI - 26.

Tractors - 8.

Trucks - 4.

Armored cars - 15.

Armored personell carriers - 9.

Number of Repairs:

Tank motors - 5.

Tank transmission - 2.

Tank running gear - 11.

Welding repairs as a result of shot damage 1

In addition 19 engines & 13 transmissions were removed by the repair services, overhauled and reinstsalled.

Usage of Spare Parts:

7 HL 230 motors.

8 HL 210 motor.

11 complete transmissions.

2 fuel tanks upper.

3 fuel tanks lower.

2 radiators right.

6 radiators left.

12 brakes complete.

16 brake units.

12 mitre gears.

22 fan shafts.

17 drive wheels.

47 toothed rims (for drive sprockets)

26 idler wheels complete.

93 double road wheels.

220 single road wheels.

50 road wheels with long connector.

26 swing arms, geared.

13 idler wheel swing arms.

16 torsion bars.

10 shock absorbers.

46 long connectors.

84 short connectors (hubs).

78 stars.

155 wheel rings.

40 cover sheets.

10 Novoter rings.

290 rubber tires (road wheels).

12 rings with oil seals for road wheels.

26 roller bearings NUE 110.

1 track spindle.

16 shock absorber levers

17 reduction gears.

47 bolts for drive sprocket.

4 carburetors, complete.

5 bosch magnetos.

15 fuel pumps

1 bosch generator.

1 bosch main battery switch.

35 carburetor spray nozzles.

Regards, John Waters

[ArgusEye]

That paints a very different picture. Great find!

[PzKpfw 1]

Having said this, I have read soldiers accounts of Tigers shearing off the teeth from their sprockets in sudden loads, like braking hard on a downslope. Whether this is true or not, that would be annoying on the battlefield if it happened - although it would be a quick thing to fix.

That was another thing mentioned in the Werksatt reports Argus, the Cos had to recondition & manufacture running gear bolts, idler wheels, toothed rims for drive sprockets, cylender bearings etc.

Regards, John Waters

[c3k]

I'm not stating that the Tigers (I &II) were reliable mechanically. However, their manner of failure was, possibly, a lot more graceful than many may think.

It's one thing to have a transmission seize up and immobilize a vehicle. It's another matter to have gears slowly wear away. If I am on a road march and the vehicle has to get to tonight's stop point, I will push it pretty hard. If I am in combat and I know the gears are slipping, then I will ensure I baby that thing...

In a similar manner, a slipping clutch (as an automotive example) can be dealt with on a long drive. You'll get it fixed at the first maintenance stop you can. That would be an operational failure. However, you'll keep using that slipping clutch as you drive out of the riot. In a similar manner, a Tiger may be considered "broken" before battle with something that could be used during the battle.

Slipping gears, piston rings, all the final drive issues, oil consumption, etc., are all weak spots of the tigers. How many of them would immobilize it on the battlefield?

[winkelried]

Below give a good idea of maintance problems with the Tiger E from s.H.Pz.Abt 502s Werksatt Cos. Dated 22.06.44 - 21.08.44:

...

Regards, John Waters

very interesting data. do you know how many kilometers and running hours the tanks clocked up during this time?

in another context i have seen, that e.g. the engines have a number of expected running hours and that these were reported to division (at least as a percentage) to have an impression on what the unit would have as breakdowns/maintenance repairs.

[PzKpfw 1]

very interesting data. do you know how many kilometers and running hours the tanks clocked up during this time?

in another context i have seen, that e.g. the engines have a number of expected running hours and that these were reported to division (at least as a percentage) to have an impression on what the unit would have as breakdowns/maintenance repairs.

Winkelried, i hve found none to date. I'll keep digging, one problem is many of the Werksatt diaries were lost or destroyed in the war.

I can relate that one of the problems 502 encountered with the Tiger E in all versions was that when operateing in hot weather Ie, 35c the heat would overstress the motor on long distance moves as in 50 - 100km marches. Another problem was the suspension whereas the shock absorber swing arms failure from excessive wear on the rubber tires, on the inner road road wheels etc.

The high tempratures also caused prolonged stress on the Olvar drive, that severely thinned the oil, which in turn caused gear shift problems & occasional failure of individual transmission cylenders.The gear shift problems as well could lead to damage to the entire transmission.

Again thia all could be alleviated somewhat with good drivers & proper rest/maince halts during high heat movements.

Regards, John Waters