Brit tank knowledge gap

[undercovergeek]

In a shameful display of unpatriotic proportions im up for a big battle with an esteemed PBEM opponent as the Brits, but i dont know enough about the differences between Cromwell and Churchill tanks to know which i should be taking?

im likely to be facing Panthers but i figured id take Fireflys for those, so what are the fundamental differences between Churchill and Cromwell - do they have similar roles?

[stikkypixie]

The Cromwell is roughly equivalent to a Sherman. The Churchill is more like the Russian KV1 tanks. Slow, well armoured (although not enough to withstand the German AT fire).

[Scrummage]

Cromwell = cruiser/ cavalry tank (should exploit the breaktrough made by the infantry and infantry tanks)

Churchill = infantry support (should work with the infantry to force a breaktrough)

But i guess this is beyond the scope of this game

[ZPB II]

I haven't played CW in a while so my memory is a little hazy, but.

The Cromwell IV (75mm) and the VI (95mm CS) are very fast. Their speed translates into better opportunities to flank Panthers and hit their juicy side armour. The VII and VIII are uparmored variants. They are slower and the extra armour will not help them much. The uparmored variants have wider tracks so if the weather is bad they should bog far less often. They are still faster than a Sherman, so in inclement conditions, consider them. (Flanking in inclement conditions I mean, the Churchill is a great offroader but it won't be doing any flanking when it's doing wheelies at 7 km/h)

The Churchills are slow and ponderous, great against lesser AT threats but Panthers with their long 75s will perforate at will. The Churchy is great when you need to slowly roll through some Volksturm boys with 50mm popguns and it stands a fair chance to shrug off the 7.5cm L/43/48 or 76R range of hazards. I've had them survive hits from Fausts and Schrecks at odd angles.

[TrailApe]

If you decide on the Churchills - pick the MkIV, the 6lber on that can give the panzers all sorts of problems - if you recall, the first Tigers and Panthers claimed by Allied tanks in the West were taken out by Churchills with 6lbers. Very good at putting holes in things - athough if you have a lot of infantry to supress, best bring a long a support Churchill with a 95mm to scare away the pixelgrunts.

Whilst the Panther's cannon can ventilate even the Churchills, remember that the ranges that they were fighting at in Normandy did not allow the Panthers (and Tigers) to exploit this 'stand-off' advantage to the full, so the bringing along a 6lber armed afv is not as daft as it sounds.

[A Canadian Cat]

if you have a lot of infantry to supress, best bring a long a support Churchill with a 95mm to scare away the pixelgrunts

Yes, the 95 is awesome in close support for infantry. I like the Churchill with the 95 more then the 105 Sherman - and I love the 105 Sherman:)

The Cromwell IV (75mm) and the VI (95mm CS) are very fast. Their speed translates into better opportunities to flank Panthers and hit their juicy side armour.

When ever I have those guys at my disposal I am newly amazed at how fast they are. Lots of fun.

Of course the other thing to think about is the Firefly. Wow those guys are dangerous. I am currently fighting a battle now against an inordinate number of those guys and they are slicing and dicing my Panthers from the front. Damn I have to be way more careful.

[John Kettler]

undercovergeek,

The Churchill is the successor to the Matilda II, but is lower, roomier and way better protected. It has excellent cross country capability,as seen by the performance of early models in Tunisia. Think "thick shelled tortoise" and "plodding" to get the proper picture. It moves at walking speed, which is good, since it's intended to accompany infantry. It is very tough. It can, based on CMx1 experience (YMMV), indeed take multiple 75mm L/48 hits, then kill the tormentor. The 6-pdr is indeed a nasty weapon and fires APDS. It is quite capable of killing a Tiger 1. Have some relevant experience in this area.

The Cromwell is the successor design to the cruiser tanks A10 and Crusader and is armed like a Sherman (short 75) unless it's a CS(Close Support) version with the 95mm. CS tanks are a throwback to the earlier period in which the 'I" tanks had no HE capability whatsoever, and something had to be done to fill the resulting hole in military capabilities. The Cromwell CS is splendid for smashing things, and by "things" I particularly mean fighting positions in buildings and other unpleasantness (pillboxes) for which the short 75 isn't all that effective.

I shall now demonstrate these last two in action. This is my AAR from one of the ROW (Rumblings Of War) CMx1 tournaments.

SPOILER ALERT!!!!!!!!!

SPOILER ALERT!!!!!!!!!

Polish Push

John Kettler vs. Ugbash

From : Capt. Januscz Kettleriwicz

To : OC, 1st Inf. Battn., 1st Polish Armored Div.

Subj : After Action Report, St. Martin-Bocage

Summary

In a vicious eighteeen minute action fought in the rain, this command and attachments, subsequently reinforced, succeeded in overcoming unexpected, powerful enemy resistance, including veteran and regular motorized troops, mines, an AT gun and armor, and completely clearing the town of all hostile presence. The surviving enemy troops were seen fleeing toward their own lines.

77 casualties (24 KIA, 53 WIA). One Cromwell total loss; two require REME attention, being immobilized.

Present Status

108 effectives remain, with casualties as high as 90% in some squads, others largely intact. Urgently need ammo of all types and desperately need more infantry to ward off the inevitable counterattack. Have a depleted platoon well beyond Objective A and other elements including multiple PIAT teams holding the crossroads. Objective B is held by what’s left of C platoon and the engineers, including one flamethrower. All functioning armor (two tanks) is presently vicinity of Objective B. This armor needs 75mm and 95mm HE ammo.

Initial Dispositions

Though this command arrived in combat line, formation adjustments were made to facilitate the hasty attack, and TRPs were shifted

to support the plan of maneuver. When the execute order was given, B platoon (Lt. Klimek) was on the left, straddling the N-42, intermingled with the platoon mortar, the Vickers MG and the FO (Lt. Grzybowski) in support positions next to the N-42 overlooking the town, followed by Lt. Barzowski’s engineers near a major gap in the bocage, and C platoon (Lt. Wisniewski) by the next gap over. The plan was to probe carefully for resistance, then use mortar fire and tank fire, in conjunction with infantry fires, to suppress and destroy it. The engineers were to lag a bit, enabling them to get into cover, undetected if possible.

Turn 1

Tanks and mortars paste west end of town. Church receives particular attention since it commands primary approach via N-42 Troops jump off as scheduled.

Turn 2

Mortar fire shifted to eastern TRP begins to fall. B platoon advances, and the lead section takes 70% casualties from Germans in the church, in an adjacent house, and many in the buildings behind the church. The CS Cromwell delivers punishing fire into the church, causing the Germans there to depart in haste. Two sections make it to cover, the brutalized one to an occupied house and the other to the church, having found an AP minefield by running through it. Other units advance as ordered, encountering no resistance.

Turn 3

B platoon attempts to destroy enemy squad with fire while flanking to left with one section. Cromwell IV and Cromwell CS support advance by demolishing or obscuring identified points of resistance. Mortar fire now directed slightly to the right of initial TRP in an attempt to disrupt defense without endangering own troops. Good pattern. Badly hurt section down to one man, but German veteran motorized squad takes three casualties and retreats. C platoon emerges from last row of W-E bocage and comes under enfilade MG fire from right front.

Turn 4

Objective A’s mine! Damaged German squad is driven from its refuge by tank fire. Mortars are ordered to add range and continue, but can’t be fired promptly. Tanks pound identified infantry firing positions. Engineer platoon minus also emerges from last row of bocage and moves into houses on outskirts, with flamethrower teams in deep trail, still behind the bocage. What looked good before turns out to be bad indeed, though, for no less than three different German positions pop up on the approaches to Objective B, one in a stout multistory stone building overlooking the outskirts. The engineer HQ takes a casualty.

Turn 5

Resistance stiffens, and my troops pay. My left Cromwell is engaging infantry in buildings, is hit by something, and explodes. The CS Cromwell finishes off a damaged large wooden building. A priority fire request leads to a lateral shift of my engineers away from the eastern TRP and into another house mere seconds before desperately needed suppressive fires come crashing in. A spirited engagement rages between the enfilading MG on my right and C platoon, with no apparent casualties to either. One section is advanced into the corner of town, and the platoon mortar begins firing on the MG. Not only is the shooting not inspired, but it is brought to a shattering halt by a hail of lead from the road east of town, followed by a big explosion which destroys the mortar. Gun front! C platoon is now under fire from two perpendicular axes.

Turn 6

Action left front. Armor! Two StuGs, I think. Worse, they’re accompanied by infantry. CS Cromwell fires one hasty round (near miss) at trail StuG and scoots forward behind cover. StuGs abuse my infantry in the church, inflicting two casualties, receiving small arms in reply. Mortar fire is now targeted between two strongpoints and falls there and deeper. This seems to calm things a bit in the center, but my right is being blasted and shot to pieces. Platoon HQ takes a casualty, but the rightmost section loses five men in seconds, thanks to the deadly perpendicular problem just described. The lead section advances into town in fine order, then is shot to pieces by something, losing four men and breaking, then fleeing the town, pursued by MG fire, which takes out another man. C platoon is in real trouble. The Germans smoke the one intact squad and pound everything else. Am attempting to get the Vickers into action. Have also ordered another mortar section to move to reinforce C platoon and kill the gun and MG. The PIAT tries to kill the gun. No joy. Intact squad takes three casualties from shellbursts.

Turn 7

A furious turn, with firefights raging everywhere and armor hammering infantry in buildings. The Germans own the board, but I make them pay. I take a few losses on the left, but more than make up for it in the center, where mortar fire drives the Germans out of a small wooden house, which promptly explodes, then into a wooden building, which a mortar shell sets ablaze. The resultant mad dash into the road brings the section into tank and infantry sights, costing five it men and its combat effectiveness. Sadly, there is yet more bad news. A runner informs me that the engineer HQ is simply gone. No word as to cause. One of the two sections is hit and falling apart. C platoon is all but wiped out. Platoon HQ is one man, the former lead section is in rout and also one man, and the most functional section is blasted down to two thirds strength and panics. Well, at least the Vickers is in action.

Turn 8

Shall I rejoice or weep? Both! I shall rejoice because reinforcements arrive, the trailing infantry platoon and two more Cromwells. I shall weep because C platoon has a grand total of four infantrymen left. Four! The HQ survivor also has a Vickers and a newly arrived 2” mortar team, plus a badly hurt PIAT team down to its last two shots. PIAT continues to engage gun. No joy.

The MG in its foxhole is likewise impervious to the new mortar. Maybe it’s because the HQ spotting for the mortar team is pinned?

I shall rejoice because my left flank attack struck home, and weep because the StuGs screened most of the base of fire. I hurt the Germans with the storming, but the section loses half its strength and pins. I shall rejoice because the CS Cromwell is wreaking havoc on the Germans in the stone building, and I shall weep and rejoice because my smokescreen arrives, blocking LOS to my target, but enabling my engineers to advance. I shall weep because a Panzerschreck team appears in the street near the burning building and rejoice because it comes under fire, is put facedown, and loses a man!

Turn 9

Too wild for me! My four regular guys in the house rally and fight three veteran Germans, supported by deadly StuG MG fire.

Luckily, the smoke clears, allowing my base of fire to assist a bit. My four become one, his three become zero. I win! The Panzerschreck team, which is in killing range of two of my tanks, comes under so much MG and infantry fire that it bolts and is gunned down. Even more exciting is that I now have LOS from the other new tank to the dread gun which has shattered C platoon. My tank tries to kill the gun as the gun traverses. Three agonizing rounds later--dead gun! C platoon is now up to six effectives, the routed section remnant having been collared and rallied, happily with more men than first thought. And still the MG rips my flank!

Covered by the damaged engineer section in cover, my intact one advances to the stone building, right after the Germans abandon it, presumably in fear of the CS Cromwell.

Turn 10

My sole assault survivor duels with a German section near the StuGs, which torment my men in the church. Losses reach 50%, and the remnant pins, but is rallied by Lt. Klimek. Meanwhile, my leftmost tank plays hunt and reverse, shelling a building next to the StuGs, with the objectives of preventing reoccupation by German infantry and maybe buttoning the near StuG. This seems fairly assured when the building disintegrates. My engineer section occupies the upper level of the stone building, chases the former occupants back another row of houses, then comes under fire from the adjacent one. The laggard flamethrower team catches up with the base of fire engineer section, enters a stone house and hides. The now identified HMG-42 on my right flank takes a final casualty and dies. Platoon strength will be up to a full section shortly, for a broken half section is now up to panicked.

Turn 11

Havoc on the left flank! The StuGs systematically shatter my forward infantry, putting my Horatius into ultimately fatal flight, and driving another sole survivor from his building. Screened by smoke from one tank, its sibling advances as E platoon

moves into assault formation on my extreme left. Things are better in the center as one Cromwell destroys a presumed infantry position and the CS Cromwell blasts the building (and its former stone building occupants) one short of the flag. The engineer section in that captured building cuts four men out of a German half section, losing one man in the process. The remaining engineer section and flamethrower team advance to that building.

C platoon is up to eleven infantrymen.

Turn 12

In a wild turn I still don’t entirely understand, there is a deadly clash of armor. Originally, I think I kill a StuG

at a cost of two immobilized Cromwells. In reality, my wing tank

firing smoke hits an AT mine, while the other one gets into a wild duel with two StuGs, kills one, and is immobilized. The other StuG apparently reverses out of LOS just as a third Cromwell works into cover to the right of the remaining StuG. Nearby German infantry gets tired of explosions and lead and splits. The CS Cromwell levels its target building, frightening my advancing second engineer section into the stone building, and then harries the survivors in their new refuge, the building closest to the flag.

C platoon shifts direction and resumes its attack on the village proper, covered by the resited Vickers.

Turn 13

More confusion! The green tank crew sees the other StuG die, and having laid an ambush, naturally, wrongly, assumes it did the deed. Actually, the killer of the first StuG breaks off bombarding a brick building near German infantry and targets one round on the StuG when it comes into LOS. That’s all it takes. Lumps are taken elsewhere, though. My damaged engineer section gets caught in a crossfire and loses two men, then pins, plus I lose a man from the flamethrower team. C platoon advances into town, losing two more men for its pains.

Turn 14

Bad turn for both of us! I destroy two crews with mortar and infantry fires on the left and drive a third into the woods, but I lose five men from the cut-up engineer section, which then panics, via enfilade fire before the CS Cromwell in turn evicts the infantry causing such havoc. The infantry hiding in the building by Objective B decides the area’s unhealthy, but the street’s worse. That remnant winds up in a heavy building. C platoon takes a morale hit in one of its section remnants, but the Vickers is now pouring streams of .303 into the building holding one of the last German resistance centers, aided by the nearly intact engineer section firing at right angles to the left.

Turn 15

The Germans may be yielding ground, but do they have sharp fangs!

E platoon’s lead section gets into serious trouble after being shaken earlier and losing two men. This turn, it loses two more from three German units and being out of command, panics. Offsetting this is that the German infantry which does this, pulls back to the woods, doubtless encouraged by the building blown up next to them. Armor converges on the roads to and near Objective B, and German infantry retreats from the building in the Vickers and engineer crossfire, allowing that building to be taken.

Turn 16

Exploitation phase begins as E platoon begins to pass beyond Objective A. Infantry and tank fires are poured into retreating German infantry. Objective B finally falls. Armor reducing one of the strongpoints reports fleeing Germans and takes many under fire. Strongpoint is blown to bits. C platoon, what’s left of it, is on the verge of carrying the building next to the objective. Most of an engineer section and a flamethrower team are also on line and ready for the last push.

Turn 17

Objective B carried and occupied by engineer section and flamethrower team, with C platoon in echelon right. Engineer section remnant now functional, but the C platoon section remnant remains panicked. Armor pours unrelenting HE and MG fire into retreating Germans. Some sort of German section a mere 40 meters from the wing Cromwell near Objective B continues to receive fire from ammo depleted half section atop church.

Turn 18

E platoon begins general advance and pursuit. Crossroads covered by B platoon remnants and PIAT teams. German section put to flight by platoon HQ observed mortar volleys and small arms. Armor advances past Objective B and chases Germans from the field. C platoon moves adjacent to Objective B building and places section minus in one house and the Vickers in the one able to see both up the road and across the front of Objective B. Remaining elements are in row of houses immediately behind these.

Outcome

Allied Major Victory, 76 to 24 my favor. The big surprise is that

broken German troops near my infantry and armor didn’t surrender, further fattening the win, my first in this tournament. Of a company plus committed on my end, little more than two platoons remain. Of a complete troop of Cromwells, two tanks remain operational, with two immobilized and one a total loss.

Comments

I nearly soiled myself when I encountered veteran motorized infantry, for much of my force was green, though fortunately with good HQs. I came close to getting my clock cleaned and my head handed to me, but I was lucky for once and also planned and played well (if we ignore C platoon’s near annihilation by PAK 40 and HMG-42s and getting the engineers almost destroyed). Repositioning the TRPs probably won me the game, for they enabled me to make rapid target shifts to respond to battle developments. 4.2” mortar fire helped create openings I systematically exploited to the hilt, as seen in several sections reduced to single men, but in command and fighting throughout. Armor was vital, both in reducing one position after another and in destroying those deadly StuGs. One Cromwell IV got both StuGs, the second kill after being immobilized. The CS Cromwell did yeoman work, winding up with nearly empty ammo racks. The 2” mortar continues to suffer from inadequate smoke loads. All in all, combined arms worked quite well in this engagement. For once!

END

Regards,

John Kettler

[undercovergeek]

thanks for everyones help - filled a knowledge gap indeed, my opponent is here lurking so i wont say which way ill go but thanks

[Childress]

77 casualties (24 KIA, 53 WIA). One Cromwell total loss; two require REME attention, being immobilized.

That's a plausible KIA/WIA ratio. In CM2 those numbers would likely be reversed. Or even.