poesel Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 For the first time I'm 'enjoying' to have several M30 at my disposal. Now I'm feeling the frustration that someone had when he created the other thread about the protection this vehicle gives. If you missed it: they die like flies if you put them too close to anyone with a slingshot. My questions is something else: this nice .50cal that comes with the M30 - if its so deadly to be standing in the M30 wouldn't they have dismounted and take the gun with them? Or was that technically impossible or against doctrine? Just wondering. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 You're not talking about the Italian M30 HMG, are you? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poesel Posted August 12, 2012 Author Share Posted August 12, 2012 No, sorry - I meant the M3 US halftrack. 8) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MG TOW Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 For the first time I'm 'enjoying' to have several M30 at my disposal. Now I'm feeling the frustration that someone had when he created the other thread about the protection this vehicle gives. If you missed it: they die like flies if you put them too close to anyone with a slingshot. My questions is something else: this nice .50cal that comes with the M30 - if its so deadly to be standing in the M30 wouldn't they have dismounted and take the gun with them? Or was that technically impossible or against doctrine? Just wondering. In theory this would take a crew. That ma deuce is a heavy one. A person to carry the gun, another the tri pod, which is also heavy, plus the cans of ammo. half tracks have a crew of 2 and I can't see any less the 3 men as crew/ammo bearer for this weapon. But, a follow up question would be did the half tracks also carry a tri-pod for the mounted M2. that I don't know. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 ...did the half tracks also carry a tri-pod for the mounted M2. that I don't know. I don't know either. Possibly. But given that the .50 was provided for AA protection, that strikes me as a little doubtful. Whether the crew might have acquired a tripod "informally" is another question. In Third Army for instance things like that were known to happen. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 poesel71, Halftracks fitted with the Ma Deuce carried tripods with them for ground use. This was certainly true of the Armored Infantry Battalion and is discussed in the relevant FM, from which I posted considerable excerpts to a longish thread, which I seem unable to locate presently, on halftrack gunners and their short lifespans in CMx2 engagements. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 poesel71, This is ironclad proof that tripods for the MGs on the M2/M3 halftracks for carrying personnel, excludes certain TDs separately listed but includes the mortar halftracks, were standard issue. You can't get a better source than this. See pages 64 and 67 under "Armament," please. http://www.scribd.com/doc/13810463/Standard-Ordnance-Items-Catalog-1944-Vol-1 Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poesel Posted August 13, 2012 Author Share Posted August 13, 2012 Thanks for the info! Maybe that gets included sometime. I think I'd rather deploy the .50cal like a Pak (including all the movement and setup hassles) than using it on this 'kill me' space. Did that historically happen? If a M3 got caught on the front line it seems sensible to do. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Are we now talking about M3 the transport halftrack or M3 the 75mm gun motor carriage? Or maybe T30 the 75mm howitzer motor carriage? Those US designations... For the gun carriers I don't think they would do this. The Browning is there to provide anti-air cover, not for fighting infantry. And setting up a MG nest negates the mobility that is the reason for having tank destroyers rather than towed guns in the first place. For the transport halftrack I feel the same would apply - it would be a queer idea for a crew to abandon their vehicle when their main purpose is to haul people and supplies around the place. It might have been done when setting up a lager or if the truck broke down but I don't think it's a standard procedure that should be modelled in the game. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Sergei, If you do a little research at the link, you'll see for yourself. As I recall, the TD and assault gun configurations have provisions for a tripod but don't necessarily carry them, whereas the other varieties of halftrack do. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 I'm sure they had provisions for toothbrushes as well, this doesn't mean that they would start cleaning their teeth during battle. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Sergei, Cute! The primary answer still stands, though. M2/M3 halftracks fitted with MGs have tripods for same as standard fit. This is made perfectly clear in the Armored Infantry Battalion excerpts I posted (and haven't yet found) where it specifically talks about dismounting the MGs and using them to form the base of fire for a tank attack. Also, a vehicle mounted MG can't conduct grazing fire for defense. Too high. Grazing fire requires a tripod. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I wonder if the tripods, if actually used in practice, were used primarily to set up a perimeter defense for a night time laager. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Michael Emrys, That was certainly one of their major functions, local security in laager. The auxiliary ordnance also provided the capability to emplace a roadblock (AT mines claim a victim) and cover it with small arms and bazooka fire. If you can find the the Bellona book on German halftracks, I believe you'll find the auxiliary weaponry on a Panzerwerfer 42 to be pretty impressive. Talk about well stocked! Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Dismounted MGs (M2, .30cal or MG42 and whatever the Italians use) can handily be represented in your OOB by adding "Specialist Teams". If you're designing a scenario, you'd perhaps want to reduce the head count of the squad whose halfie has been defanged in such a way, (and add the extra lead chuckers to the appropriate Platoon, rather than tacking them on at Bttn level), but you don't have that option, AIUI, in QBs; perhaps deleting the XO team or somesuch would keep the company headcount nearer establishment. But just because the .50cal could be dismounted doesn't mean it often would be. AIUI, the dismounted role also served for defending the laager where the tracks were left, and Ma Deuce has eaten a few pies in her life, and is a hefty load to carry any distance; the circumstances where having her along is worth sacrificing the rifle platoon's foot mobility and where the gun wouldn't be better brought along attached to its transport would perhaps be less common than you might think. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Ma Deuce has eaten a few pies in her life, and is a hefty load to carry any distance The gun+tripod is certainly heavy, but worse still is the ammn. Carrying a worthwhile load of ammn, footmobile, takes a ridiculous allocation of time and/or manpower. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.