AI_Deployment vs. SUZ or both?

[sleepercell]

I was hoping to get some clarification regarding the differences between simply leaving a unit in a deployed facing and not in a setup zone when considering the AI plan for a scenario. For instance when a unit is actually part of a "planned group", their location and especially facing cannot be precisely controlled as it can in deployment. (i.e. An infantry unit deployed in a 3 story building on the first floor facing east can be achieved with deployment. However, if you've painted the building's area as a setup zone and assigned the unit as part of an AI group, assigned to setup in "lower levels", which is the closest to the ground level you can select; 50% of the time the unit may deploy on the 2nd level facing west. etc.) So my questions for scenario designers are:

1. Do you typically leave units deployed and in their facing outside a SUZ if you do not intend or care for them to move but wish to maintain a precise LOS from the start of the battle? If so, would you leave this group as the default group #1 with a "normal" disposition selected?

2. Do you use SUZ's to give a more random feeling and variation to deployment or only for specific AI groups that you intend to follow a set of orders?

3. Will units that have been "setup" in a SUZ as part of a plan behave more effectively than units that have simply been deployed?

Thanks for any input/ sc

[mjkerner]

Sleepercell, for me:

1) yes

2) depending on the scenario situation, I usually never use the SUZ even for groups that I give movement orders to

3) I don't see why they would. The AI sets them up as it sees fit if you use an SUZ, and it appears pretty random when they do. That's why I rarely use them.

[sleepercell]

Thanks mjkerner,

Not to belabor the point but this is the text in the manual that has me a bit confused.

("The AI does not break the rules. If you paint a Map Zone for a Setup Order

outside of a valid Axis or Allied Setup Zone (as defined in the Map Editor),

the AI will never setup there. Therefore, make sure that your Map Zone for

Setup Orders for the AI plan matches a valid Setup Zone in the Map Editor.

To make this easier, Setup Zones are always shown on the 2D map when you

select a Setup Order in the plan.)

In your experience units will just follow their group orders even if they are not in a SUZ at start? (the manual text would seem to contradict this)

[JonS]

An AI group will deploy itself in the overlap between the Set Up Zone created in the map editor, and the (what's it called?) AI Start Zone set in the AI Editor. If there is no overlap, then the AI units will stay exactly where you - the designer - placed them.

EDIT: the unit must also be plaed in that overlapping area via Deploy Forces. If you - as scenario designer - place them outside the overlapping area they will, again, remain exactly where you placed them.

Once the scenario starts, they will commence following their AI orders sequence, regardless of whether they were free to shuffle about at start or not.

[sleepercell]

Got it, appreciate the clarification. The last hail Mary ? that I'm not sure needs a thread. Is there any way to ensure that the AI doesn't surrender? Thanks again, really enjoy your scenarios.

[JonS]

I *think* you can have a large group set to arrive as reinforcements after the end of the scenario. Since they never arrive they'll never take casualties, but because they exist the %age casualty threshold to surrender is never reached.

I think that's right, but you'll need to test it to confirm.

[ASL Veteran]

An AI group will deploy itself in the overlap between the Set Up Zone created in the map editor, and the (what's it called?) AI Start Zone set in the AI Editor. If there is no overlap, then the AI units will stay exactly where you - the designer - placed them.

EDIT: the unit must also be plaed in that overlapping area via Deploy Forces. If you - as scenario designer - place them outside the overlapping area they will, again, remain exactly where you placed them.

Once the scenario starts, they will commence following their AI orders sequence, regardless of whether they were free to shuffle about at start or not.

95% correct. If a truppen is deployed anywhere within the Set Up Zone the truppen will be deployed within the AI start zone as long as the AI start zone is located within the force Set Up Zone. I know you know that already, but your explanation could be construed that a truppen within the Set Up Zone but not within the AI Start Zone would not be moved to within the AI start zone. The only time truppen would not be moved to within the AI Start Zone is if they were not deployed within the Set Up Zone (or if the AI start zone is not located within the Set Up Zone of course). I do this all the time so that the player doesn't know where my AI truppen will necessarily be by firing up the scenario and peeking before they start or if they have already played the scenario as one side or the other. It also helps when making multiple AI plans because you can always start each AI group in an entirely different location as long as everything is located within the Set Up Zone.

I should also add that the truppen and vehicles will always retain their facing according to how you originally deployed them. So you can control their facing to some extent as long as all possible deployment spots that you want them placed will be consistent with their facing as originally deployed by you in the editor.

[Chris Ferrous]

All the above is true. It also applies to fortifications and mines.

I prefer at least one of the AI's plans to have a variable set-up and usually when the game starts the facing etc conforms to the general trend of the scenario, i.e. how the designer has placed and faced the units and the direction of the friendly mapedge. But, I have found that a small proportion of units can deploy on the 'wrong side' of a fence/hedge/bocage etc if the set-up zone (painted AI zone) includes the tile through which the barrier passes.

Missing out the tile which includes the barrier doesn't seem to be an option, especially for bocage, because although the unit will then deploy on the correct side of the barrier it cannot see through it, nor will it move that fraction to acquire LOS! So the simplest solution is to leave the units in place and not give them a variable set-up.

I have experimented with deploying units up to a barrier by planned movement; e.g. units set-up some distance back and are then given a move to that barrier order as soon as the scenario starts (or whenever you as designer want the move to be made), and in that case the units WILL deploy on the side of the barrier from which they approach.

From my experience the most frustrating things about AI plans are:-

1) upon arrival at a location the unit immediately assumes the facing for any subsequent planned moves, however far ahead in time that may be. This is especially important and frustrating for AFVs which can present their rear to the enemy if they have a planned move rearward later in the scenario,

2) the next waypoint in a sequence of moves is chosen at random regardless of whereabouts in a waypoint zone the unit happens to be, so it could move to the left of the zone for waypoint 1 and then choose to go to the far right for waypoint 2 etc., so consider 'global movements' from one waypoint zone to the next and limit them accordingly dependent on terrain and the likely tactical situation.

It's all good fun!

[ASL Veteran]

But, I have found that a small proportion of units can deploy on the 'wrong side' of a fence/hedge/bocage etc if the set-up zone (painted AI zone) includes the tile through which the barrier passes.

Actually the side of the wall they deploy on is consistent as well. Well, mostly consistent. It is fixed though so the facing of the troops as placed by the designer won't affect which side of the wall the truppen will deploy on. Once you find out which side of the wall the AI will place the truppen though you can adapt so that they will always be on the correct side. It's easier with the diagonal sections though. If any deploy on the wrong side of the wall and the wall is diagonal then you have to either deploy the truppen in the actual action spot where the wall is located or in the action spot between the wall action spots. If you do either consistently once you find out which way the walls are going to work out you can consistently get your truppen on the correct side of the walls.

In some cases with the non diagonal walls that means that the walls are unusable by the AI because the AI won't put them on the correct side. You can always get them on the correct side of diagonals depending upon which action spot you use. You just have to figure out which is the correct action spot to use.

[nik mond]

I was hoping to get some clarification regarding the differences between simply leaving a unit in a deployed facing and not in a setup zone when considering the AI plan for a scenario. For instance when a unit is actually part of a "planned group", their location and especially facing cannot be precisely controlled as it can in deployment. (i.e. An infantry unit deployed in a 3 story building on the first floor facing east can be achieved with deployment. However, if you've painted the building's area as a setup zone and assigned the unit as part of an AI group, assigned to setup in "lower levels", which is the closest to the ground level you can select; 50% of the time the unit may deploy on the 2nd level facing west. etc.) So my questions for scenario designers are:

1. Do you typically leave units deployed and in their facing outside a SUZ if you do not intend or care for them to move but wish to maintain a precise LOS from the start of the battle? If so, would you leave this group as the default group #1 with a "normal" disposition selected?

2. Do you use SUZ's to give a more random feeling and variation to deployment or only for specific AI groups that you intend to follow a set of orders?

3. Will units that have been "setup" in a SUZ as part of a plan behave more effectively than units that have simply been deployed?

Thanks for any input/ sc

Just want to mention..... consider also if the scenario is meant to be played either side vs AI. If so, then those units that are placed outside of the map setup zone will be exactly where you left them, possibly outside of the SUZ and the player will not be able to reposition them before hitting the start button.

AND.... AI Set up locations prior to order1 must be somewhere in the SUZ. when the AI is deploying otherwise he will move straight to order1 location from where the unit was placed if outside of the SUZ.