Pathfinders?

[Broadsword56]

I was watching a documentary on US Airborne pathfinders in WWII today on the Military History Channel, and it made me wonder whether anyone has made -- or tried to make -- a small scenario featuring these specially trained and tasked troops.

Some specific things that seemed like they might work in a scenario -- a night scenario, of course:

1. Randomized landings -- setting the pathfinders as reinforcements with some variation in where they'll show up.

2. Randomized enemy -- set the Germans to pop up randomly too, or do some AI patrols.

3. Mission duration: AFAIK, pathfinders had. 60 min. to find the DZ, clear it and mark it for the landings.

4. Pathfinders marked the DZ with a small radar beacon and lit the signal lamps in the shape of a giant "T." I could imagine one or more "touch" objectives on the DZ would represent the place where the radar has to be set up. And I could imagine setting a series of combustible objects (small immobile veihicles?) to make the lamp positions of the "T." If the pathfinders have demo charges, they have to blow up all the objects -- creating the fires to act as the beacons. The other plus is that because destroyed vehicles could be point obectives, it would give the scenario a way to award VPs for lighting the "T."

The pathfinders had their own TO&E for these missions -- not sure what the details were. But I'd see it being a very small, but very repeatable and replayable battle due to the random variations in where the pathfinders land and how close the enemy is.

I'm no AI coder, but I just wanted to throw the idea out there to inspire any would-be designers. Might be good for Sicily or Salerno too, but not so sure about the pathfinders' roles there.

[JonS]

1. Randomized landings -- setting the pathfinders as reinforcements with some variation in where they'll show up.

I don't think this is possible?

2. Randomized enemy -- set the Germans to pop up randomly too, or do some AI patrols.

That's fairly easy - you can vary the arrival time (but not the location) by up to 15 minutes. The problem, though, is that I think you need to wait to the end of that variable time before having the reinforcements move, otherwise they 'fall off' the script.

A range of patrol routes would be fairly easy to set up.

3. Mission duration: AFAIK, pathfinders had 60 min to find the DZ, clear it and mark it for the landings.

Pretty easy to set, obviously. But I'm pretty sure it's quite a bit shorter than that.

4. Pathfinders marked the DZ with a small radar beacon and lit the signal lamps in the shape of a giant "T." I could imagine one or more "touch" objectives on the DZ would represent the place where the radar has to be set up. And I could imagine setting a series of combustible objects (small immobile veihicles?) to make the lamp positions of the "T." If the pathfinders have demo charges, they have to blow up all the objects -- creating the fires to act as the beacons. The other plus is that because destroyed vehicles could be point obectives, it would give the scenario a way to award VPs for lighting the "T."

Probably an OCCUPY for the Eureka, since it has to be set up and operated.

A string of immobilised Kubelwagens for the T is an interesting idea But that would make it not so great as an H2H scenario.

The pathfinders had their own TO&E for these missions -- not sure what the details were.

Yep, and it's not all that hard to find, either. The British one is here:

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/airborne-forces/28527-air-landing-parachute-battalions.html

INDEPENDENT PARACHUTE COMPANY (PATHFINDERS)

War Establishment 1/240/2 with an effective date of November 1943

Headquarters

Major

Captain

Company Sejeant Major

Company Quartermaster Serjeant

Serjeant parachute packer

Corporal

29 X private.

Attached

medical serjeant RAMC

4 X nursing orderly RAMC

armourer REME

vehicle mechanic REME

cook for officers mess ACC

4 X cook ACC

instructor APTC

Mortar Detachments 1 & 2 (ea)

serjeant

corporal

6 X men

1 X 3” mortar

1 X 2” mortar

Anti Tank Section.

corporal

6 X private

No 68 AT grenades

2” mortar

Transport

22 X folding bicycle

4 X folding motorcycle

4 X bicycle

2 X motorcycle

1 X car 2 seater

1 X 15cwt GS

1 X 15cwt water

1 X 3ton 4 X 2

Platoons 1-3 (ea)

Headquarters

Subaltern

serjeant

2 X private

1 X folding bicycle

1 X PIAT

1 X Bren gun

1 X 2” mortar

sections 1-3 (ea)

serjeant

corporal

8 X men

1 X bren gun

1 X 2” mortar

1 X grenade discharger cup.

Might be good for Sicily or Salerno too, but not so sure about the pathfinders' roles there.

I'm not sure if the US used Pathfinders in Sicily. (Incidentally, that indicates the Pathfinders only had 15mins to complete their task ... which if anything makes this more attractive as a scen idea)

On the whole, though, I think that both US and UK Pathfinders din't see much action until after their primary role was complete. That nis, they were able to complete their pathfinding task - on all their drops - unhindered by the enemy. It could still make for a good fictional scen though

[akd]

I'm not sure if the US used Pathfinders in Sicily. (Incidentaly, that indicates the Patfinders only had 15mins to complete their task ... which if anything makes this more attractive as a scen idea)

US pathfinders were set up in response to the airborne failures during Husky, but...this is the CMBN forum.

[JonS]

True, but did you read what I was reponding to?

Quoting out of context like that is naughty-naughty

[Broadsword56]

@JonS: Thanks for the TO&E information.

I see now about why my idea can't work: The editor lets us randomize WHEN units arrive, but not WHERE.

[akd]

True, but did you read what I was reponding to?

Quoting out of context like that is naughty-naughty

Oh, look at that little quote box down there all on its lonesome. Poor thing.

[Hister]

For a mission involving Pathfinders in-game path-finding would have to be improved somewhat!

[A Canadian Cat]

@JonS: Thanks for the TO&E information.

I see now about why my idea can't work: The editor lets us randomize WHEN units arrive, but not WHERE.

So, one of the projects that I started working on was a fictional paratrooper operation and I thought about that whole random landing issue.

For the Allies paratroopers:

You could do one of two things fix all the sections or teams spread out "randomly" over a DZ area. That will not change for the player each time they played but forces them to start spread out and out of command etc. Or you could create many small setup areas and put small groups of the paras in each of those areas. Again not random but allows some variety each time a player plays. In the end I chose to do a combination of the two. Take half the force and spread them out in fixed locations and then the other half in small setup zones also spread around the same area.

For the German patrols:

The patrols can be randomized by having multiple AI plans. Each plan can have a different initial deployment of the German troops and have different patrol routes. That should allow you to create very different scenarios each time.

One thing that I never explored but wondered about is if you use the multiple AI plans with different fixed starting point techniques with the Allied paras too would the game randomly choose one of those initial setups for the player when they controlled the paras? I always meant to test that but never got around to it.

[JonS]

I see now about why my idea can't work: The editor lets us randomize WHEN units arrive, but not WHERE.

That bit of the idea, yeah, but I still think it'd make for an interesting little scenario. And, also, I'm not really convinced that mega-replayability is all that desirable anyway. I think a really well designed and built scenario that loses most FOW after the first play through is a better, more realistic, proposition than trying to extend FOW over multiple playings.

Edit: and, actually, I was in a sense wrong about the reinforcements anyway, as Ian points out. It is possible to use the intersection between AI groups and Set Up Zones to make ... um ... 24? distinct setup zones for the AI, which is plenty of randomness in terms of location for a platoon sized scenario. If you ignore the reinforcement slots, then you can just start different AI groups from their different locations at different times using different AI plans.

For example:

Axis Plan 1 has AI group A1 starting from location A at the 5:00 minute mark.

Axis Plan 2 has AI group A1 starting from location A at the 0:30 second mark.

Axis Plan 3 has AI group A1 starting from location B at the 10:00 minute mark.

Axis Plan 4 has AI group A1 starting from location C at the 5:30 minute mark.

Axis Plan 5 has AI group A1 starting from location B at the 4:00 minute mark.

etc.

They don't arrive at a random location, but they do start - from the US/UK players point of view - from a random location, and at a random time. As long as all the starting locations are (reasonably) remote from the areas the US/UK player is likely to be moving through you shouldn't get too much conflict. And that should be reasonably easy to acheive - have the US/UK Eureka and 'T' objectives somewhere near the centre of the map, and the German starting positions (mostly) around the edge of the map

Edit2: but that still doesn't allow random arrival locations for the US or UK pathfinders

Edit3: Although, using the British TOE example above, it'd be fairly straightforward to create a Pathfinder Platoon that had 7 or 8 distinct elelements (making use of specialist teams and headcount reduction), then assign each of those elements to its own reinforcement slot. Then set all of the reinforcement slots to appear between 0-10 minutes. Even though the exact locations wouldn't be random, the arrival timings and sequence would be, which would add plenty of variety

[Broadsword56]

Good suggestions, JonS, for making the most of this scenario concept using the tools we have now.

What I like about the concept is that it could be a small, beer-and-pretzels battle that someone can play when needing a quick CMBN fix. I also like that the objectives would be more varied and different than simply "kill all the Germans," or "capture that VP location." The player would have fight unknown enemies popping up in the dark, AND secure the DZ, AND get the radar and beacons working within the time limit. Also I like that the flaming beacons would progressively illuminate the DZ, too. (Just wish we had somethng smaller than a Kubelwagen to blow up and burst into flames).

[JonS]

There's some useful info on the British Pathfinders in Normandy here: http://www.pegasusarchive.org/normandy/frames.htm

There's some useful info on the US Pathfinders in Normandy here: http://www.6juin1944.com/assaut/aeropus/en_index.php (incl "Formation Flights")

The Brits jumped out of Albermarles, which convieniently had a capacity of 10 ... the strength of a pathfinder section.

[womble]

Even though the exact locations wouldn't be random, the arrival timings and sequence would be, which would add plenty of variety

Which could handily suggest the (admittedly unlikely) case that all the pathfinder units that are arriving as reinforcements landed off-target and took a variety of different times to get onto the map. If the reinforcement arrival spots were on the edges, I think, for most verisimilitude.

[A Canadian Cat]

Edit3: Although, using the British TOE example above, it'd be fairly straightforward to create a Pathfinder Platoon that had 7 or 8 distinct elelements (making use of specialist teams and headcount reduction), then assign each of those elements to its own reinforcement slot. Then set all of the reinforcement slots to appear between 0-10 minutes. Even though the exact locations wouldn't be random, the arrival timings and sequence would be, which would add plenty of variety

Brilliant, I love that idea!

[Pak40]

Landings can be randomized easily by placing many tiny setup zones in various areas of the map.

The pathfinder mission could be the first mission in an Airborne campaign. If the pathfinders are successful then the next mission will have 90% complete airborne units. If not successful then the next mission will only have collections of ad-hoc units available and be tougher to complete.

[JonS]

Landings can be randomized easily by placing many tiny setup zones in various areas of the map.

Not really, if the pathfinders are to be Human controlled. There are only three 'colours' of SUZ available, and even if each colour consists of multiple independent spots, the player can consolidate all the units from each colour into one of the spots and start from there.

What you could do, though, is have multiple isolated spots for each colour, and only have one unit initially available in each colour, with the rest arriving as reinforcements (randomly, over 0-10 minutes). Then the player can move his three initial units about to different spots, but he can't consolidate, and the units are still dispersed.