Meta-gaming (operational-tactical) options

[Broadsword56]

A thread to kick around meta-gaming options for the upcoming CMFI.

I looked over the various existing boardgames on Sicily and/or Italy and I wasn't overly impressed. Either the games didn't appeal to me, or the scale was wrong for CMFI.

But...

I see there's a very highly regarded "Sicily '43" module for the John Tiller PC series, Panzer Campaigns:

http://members.shaw.ca/gcsaunders/sicily.html

So, Noob's system for using that series with CMBN might be the best way to go, IMHO.

[sburke]

The only other one I know of is the The Gamers A Raging Storm The British 1st Infantry Division’s Defense of the Campoleone Salient,Anzio, 3-4 February 1944

[noob]

A thread to kick around meta-gaming options for the upcoming CMFI.

I looked over the various existing boardgames on Sicily and/or Italy and I wasn't overly impressed. Either the games didn't appeal to me, or the scale was wrong for CMFI.

But...

I see there's a very highly regarded "Sicily '43" module for the John Tiller PC series, Panzer Campaigns:

http://members.shaw.ca/gcsaunders/sicily.html

So, Noob's system for using that series with CMBN might be the best way to go, IMHO.

I'm planning on buying the PzC Sicily '43 game and will edit the whole OOB to fit in with the unit sizes of CMFI, also i will remove the PzC units combat ability, this allows the PzC game to be played without the fire phases, which drastically simplifies the PzC game play and also guarantees all combat is done in CMFI. (see the link at my signature for the revamped and simplified PzC/CM tutorial and rule set).

[Erwin]

There is also the old AH game ANZIO.

[Broadsword56]

@noob: Wow -- you're going to convert the OOB for the entire Sicily campaign for every unit on both sides? Looks like a big job. Thanks and looking forward to seeing that.

Just curious -- why would you want to remove the ability of the game to resolve combats universally? I guess if you wanted to use CMFI for every single combat that would make sense, but many battles at an op level might be perfunctory or boring as CM game experiences. To me, the benefit of the op game would be letting it resolve all those minor engagements, and to take over the larger events so that whatever battalion battles I chose to play in CMFI would happen within that larger context.

[noob]

@noob: Wow -- you're going to convert the OOB for the entire Sicily campaign for every unit on both sides? Looks like a big job. Thanks and looking forward to seeing that.

It is a big job, but it's worth it as once it's done it allows anyone with the PzC Sicily '43 game to be CMFI compatible in an instant.

Just curious -- why would you want to remove the ability of the game to resolve combats universally?

I guess if you wanted to use CMFI for every single combat that would make sense, but many battles at an op level might be perfunctory or boring as CM game experiences. To me, the benefit of the op game would be letting it resolve all those minor engagements, and to take over the larger events so that whatever battalion battles I chose to play in CMFI would happen within that larger context.

[noob]

@noob: Wow -- you're going to convert the OOB for the entire Sicily campaign for every unit on both sides? Looks like a big job. Thanks and looking forward to seeing that.

It is a big job, but it's worth it, as once it's done it allows anyone with the PzC Sicily '43 game to be CMFI compatible in an instant.

I'm also hoping that CMFI has some nice pre made maps that can be used with PzC Sicily, that would make playing CMFI at an operational level easy once the modified PzC OOB was added, and no need for an umpire

Just curious -- why would you want to remove the ability of the game to resolve combats universally?

I remove all combat functions in PzC because the casualties are considerably smaller than the potential casualties in a CM battle with similar forces,this is mainly due to the power of CM artillery.

I guess if you wanted to use CMFI for every single combat that would make sense, but many battles at an op level might be perfunctory or boring as CM game experiences.

In my rules any defending PzC unit can make a forced retreat to avoid a CM battle with a larger force, however there would be operational morale penalties incurred, but morale can be recovered, whereas casualties cannot, so the players will learn to apply discretion before valour, and probably the hard way

For example in the PzC Buron scenario, if a smaller PzC defending force acted as a blocker by refusing to make a forced retreat in the face of a larger PzC attacking force they would have to risk getting stonked by the attackers available CM artillery, which is for both sides considerable, so if the attacker got his plotting right he could win the CM battle with just artillery and potentially annihilate the defender, or at the very least force the defender to exit the map taking huge morale penalties.

Now there is nothing stopping the smaller defending force bringing to bear it's artillery, however given the attacker can feed units onto the CM map in whatever amounts during whatever turn makes the defenders use of artillery potentially far less effective as there will be more of a guessing game as opposed to the attacker who will know the exact deployment area of the defender, however the defenders deployment area will always be a relatively large area, so there would be a reasonable chance of survival given the restriction on artillery targeting i recommend in my rules.

However a clever attacker could still cause considerable damage with expertly placed pre planned strikes, basically like all CM battles there is a rock, paper, scissors game with artillery, however in the CM battles the PzC layer will generate that particular opening will be more nuanced.

Also a smaller defending force that chooses to make a stand and generate a CM battle will not only have to avoid the potential artillery tempest but it will be faced with greater morale penalties for any units exiting prematurely as explained in the tutorial/rules site.

Therefore i think most mismatched CM battles will be avoided by the weaker side via the operational forced retreat rule, and considering that in PzC the smallest foot unit to start with is the company and platoon for vehicles, all the potential Pzc/CM battles could offer some good competition if played out.

Another consideration for any defender thinking of using a smaller PzC force to instigate a CM battle purely to drop artillery is the rule that forbids the use of the same artillery if previously used in an attacking or defending role in that operational turn, effectively splitting the artillery available if the players want to hold back some for any potential counter attacks by their opponent.

Once people start to play operational CM using PzC with the rules i have written and am currently tweaking they will soon realise the levels of decision making that get added to playing a CM battle in such a system, a game within a game so to speak, and if you have a regular playing partner you can trust and both of you know how to modify PzC units in the OOB editor you get to ditch the umpire

[JasonC]

The best operational game on Sicily is Avalanche Press's little game "Bitter Victory - Sicily 1943". It is part of a simple but quite playable series that includes games on Gazala, the Bulge, Alsace, and in Russia Operation Mars ("Red God of War"). (The system combines elements of the Panzergruppe Guderian system with chit pull activation, for those interested). It is regiment level with a few supporting arms shown as battalions, so a bit higher scale for CM operations. But it is a solidly playable operational game in its own right. Not loaded down with chrome, but covering the essentials of the campaign, reasonably accurate OOB etc.

[Michael Emrys]

There is also the old AH game ANZIO.

That was for the entire campaign in Italy as I recall. Much closer to FI's scale is the GDW game Avalanche. In it, the pieces are company/battery level with a few platoons.

Getting back to Sicily, there was the S&T subscription game of that name, which I personally loved a very great deal. IIRC it was at regimental/brigade level with a battalion or two thrown in.

Michael

[Broadsword56]

The best operational game on Sicily is Avalanche Press's little game "Bitter Victory - Sicily 1943". It is part of a simple but quite playable series that includes games on Gazala, the Bulge, Alsace, and in Russia Operation Mars ("Red God of War"). (The system combines elements of the Panzergruppe Guderian system with chit pull activation, for those interested). It is regiment level with a few supporting arms shown as battalions, so a bit higher scale for CM operations. But it is a solidly playable operational game in its own right. Not loaded down with chrome, but covering the essentials of the campaign, reasonably accurate OOB etc.

Sounds like an excellent game, but after playing a meta campaigns using a battalion and a platoon scale game, I know I wouldn't like the way a regimental level game would work with CMBN. I'd have to do way too much abstraction and guesswork to determine the setups and maps for battles and export the results back to the boardgame. Battalion scale is about the largest that I find workable.

[Broadsword56]

Getting back to Sicily, there was the S&T subscription game of that name, which I personally loved a very great deal. IIRC it was at regimental/brigade level with a battalion or two thrown in.

Was that The Race to Messina?

[Broadsword56]

That was for the entire campaign in Italy as I recall. Much closer to FI's scale is the GDW game Avalanche. In it, the pieces are company/battery level with a few platoons.Michael

Scale is perfect for meta gaming with CMFI, and better yet -- Consimpress is redeveloping/republishing this classic 1976 monster:

http://www.consimpress.com/news/2012/4/4/avalanche-2nd-edition-q1-2012-update.html

Publication may be quite a ways off, but by then maybe the CMFI "famiglia" will have moved to the Italian mainland and the action around Salerno.

[Tactical Wargamer]

I'm planning on buying the PzC Sicily '43 game and will edit the whole OOB to fit in with the unit sizes of CMFI, also i will remove the PzC units combat ability, this allows the PzC game to be played without the fire phases, which drastically simplifies the PzC game play and also guarantees all combat is done in CMFI. (see the link at my signature for the revamped and simplified PzC/CM tutorial and rule set).

I lOVE you!

[noob]

I lOVE you!

Lol........