Amizaur Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 John, please save all your WEGO turns while you are playing. Best would be to save with orders given (so just before clicking "Go!") and also do second save after the replay phase (IIRC it is possible to save the replay movie). This way you could send us the save files, showing the things you talk about. You could also return to the last turn (loading the last "orders phase" save) click "go!" and try it again, or even few times, to see if the course of action is the same or different. The saves takes quite much disk space, but you may delete them after ech game, if nothing strange happened and you don't need them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted June 20, 2012 Author Share Posted June 20, 2012 Let me first try taking some screenshots (park them where?) and see how that works. Where would I send saved turn/game files, assuming I can even find them? Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amizaur Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 To some kind of upload/file sharing service. And you would only put the links to the files, here. For screenshots - FRAPS worked for me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Screenshots: 1- Take a picture with the PrtSc key. Or use Fraps. 2- Open in Windows Paint or Photoshop. There are many options. 3- Save as a jpg. 4- Load the jpg into a program like ImageShack (free) which provides a 'Forum Code' link. 5- Choose your size. The attached pic is for a 17" monitor. 6- Paste the link into your post. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted June 21, 2012 Author Share Posted June 21, 2012 Childress, Those Norman Farmers sure are neatniks, gridding off their fields even after surrounding them with hedgerows! I have a screen grab function on my Mac, so will give that a whirl next time I play. From the screenshot you provided, it's pretty obvious why it's so hard to move without being pasted. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Childress, Those Norman Farmers sure are neatniks, gridding off their fields even after surrounding them with hedgerows! Haha. What were they thinking? Remember a lot of greenery is missing thanks to alt-t. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 John, keep in mind that what you can see with no units selected, when Unit #1 is selected, and when Unit #2 is selected can all present you with different pictures of what can be targeted, IDed, etc. This is due to the absence of borg spotting in x2. It sounds to me like you see the Marder with no unit selected, which shows you all enemy units spotted by any of your units. But when you select a unit to fire on it, the Marder disappears because the firing unit has not spotted it. If this is not what is happening, my apologies for muddying the waters, but I wanted to be sure this possibility had been eliminated. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 John, Go back upstream a bit... Fog of War and relative spotting are what I tried to address and that's what some others are discussing. My apologies if you understand all this, but without saves and screenies, it can take a while until we're all on the same page. Let's say you've got 6 units, labeled "Unit 1" through 6. The enemy has two units, call them "Target 1" and "Target 2". If you have NO units selected, you, the player, get the overview which incorporates ALL of what EACH unit (1 through 6) can see. Starting condition: your Unit 1 can see ONLY Target 1, and Unit 2 can see ONLY Target 2, and no other units can see EITHER Target. - if you have NO units selected, you will see BOTH Target 1 AND Target 2. (You get to see the sum of all knowledge.) - if you select Unit 1, you will see ONLY Target 1. (You are limited to seeing what Unit 1 can see.) Change the conditions so now Unit 3 can see Target 1 as well. - if you select Target 1, BOTH Unit 1 AND Unit 3 will be highlighted, indicating they have LOS to, and have identified, Target 1. That "identified" part is very important. You can have LOS to a location with an enemy unit, but you may not see the enemy unit...yet. Time, experience, enemy movement, enemy fire, will all play a part in determining whether or when you spot the enemy. So, you can see Target 1. You select Unit 4 to shoot at Target 1. You get a red target line to the location, but Target 1 has disappeared. Well, that means Unit 4 has LOS to the location but Unit 4 has not seen Target 1. Unit 4 WILL fire as ordered. Maybe, by chance, some of the rounds going to the location will hit Target 1. Maybe not. Maybe Target 1 will move, thereby allowing Unit 4 to SEE it. "Ahhh", says Unit 4's TacAI, "Target 1 is an existential threat. I should shoot at Target 1 rather than plowing up the ground, as I was ordered." Then Unit 4 will "break lock" on the ground it was ordered to target. If Target 1 subsequently moves out of LOS, then Unit 4 will not re-engage its area target. (Hmmm, I think!!!) Now, back to Unit 1. You order it to fire at Target 1. Great job. The impact (hit or miss, doesn't matter) creates a huge dust cloud. Now there is no longer an LOS. Unit 1 will fire again (maybe once, maybe more), even though there's no LOS. That makes sense. (The same behavior occurs if LOS to the location exists, but the enemy is no longer spotted.) This allows your units to fire during a WeGo turn when the enemy drops out of view momentarily. Does any of the above help? Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Round of applause for Ken who explains more clearly and precisely what I tried to. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted June 22, 2012 Author Share Posted June 22, 2012 SPOILER ALERT! SPOILER ALERT! SPOILER ALERT! c3k, A splendid explanation! I am getting the hang of it to some degree, yet other things baffle me. Example: I kill a Panther by a bridge using the wonderful artillery linear target feature and force the crew to abandon it (have screenshots to prove it). German infantry is first sleeted by a flank MG, then survivors are finished off as I race in a Sherman to seize the objective. No dust or obscurants. The Sherman has the Panther dead front, so close they practically collide, but it shows as a question mark. Only when I clicked on the ? did the Panther magically appear. Turret's dead front too, so how can this great hulk of a tank be a question mark? I just don't get it. Things are there on playback, yet disappear the instant I select a vehicle. Another thing I don't get is the empty battlefield. Clear blue line into an area under direct observation from a ridge. Can't see a thing. Yet when the game was over, it turned out to have scary amounts of functioning infantry. I fear I got so wrapped in in taking cool battle pics that I forgot to document the main point, but at least things are less confusing now. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 You really do not understand relative spotting. Not even a little bit, and not even after all these various explanations. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 John I think I understand what your problem is, or what you dont get. When you select a unit of yours, you only see what that unit sees. if you select an enemy unit, and you turn your view to see whatever men you want in the same view, you'll note that any that are lit up are the ones that see that enemy unit. Units CAN shares spotting info, albeit over time, with many different factors involved. C2 chain helps, of course. I suspect often you select a unit, forget its selected and watch the battle by moving the view around, but not seeing the sum total of what all your different units are seeing. This is why most of the time I command I DO NOT have any specific unit selected while I watch the replay. if sometime sparks my interest Ill pause or just select the unit, then make sure I right click or unselect to make sure I can see everything all my men see. Also, even though your man may have clear los to something, it doesnt always mean itll be spotted right away. OR at all sometimes, but Ive noted that if the enemy unit stays in the open my units faithfully will at least eventually spot them, and quicker if the enemy is moving quickly, firing, etc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted June 22, 2012 Author Share Posted June 22, 2012 JonS, Sure, I do. My aunt walks past my window and I notice her, then recognize her. Relative spotting! Sublime, You make a point which confused me. When people talked about selecting a unit, it was unclear to me whether that meant selecting a friendly or a hostile unit. It now appears, I think, that the unit reference was to a friendly unit. But maybe, in some cases, the reference was to selecting a hostile unit and seeing who had LOS on my side? Your point about watching the replay with no friendly unit selected is valuable, as is the delay in spotting, which sometime is zero. An in a shell crater amid the haystacks, with the crew hiding was lashed by a tripod mounted MG-42 from the ridge. Clearly, it had no trouble seeing my unit, nor did my force seeing it. In fact, .30 cal. MG fire kept the thing quiet long enough for the crew, Green and hurt, to execute a stellar first round kill, Mind, the MG had other work to do, the MG-42 returned to its bloody work, and fire support outright killed the gun. Regards, John Kettler Regards, 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 I've joked to myself that a lot of players seem to be playing 'iron mode' as a point of honor but would probably be much much happier with less rigorous relative spotting rules. Me, I've been playing this game engine longer than anybody (CMSF initial alpha) and I still don't wander into iron mode territory. Does not playing iron mode make me less than manly? Well, okay in my case maybe it does, but that's not my point. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted June 22, 2012 Author Share Posted June 22, 2012 Mikey D, Iron mode in the real world would come with maps and maybe even aerial photographs. Artillery could be called down on the places that need it most: reverse slopes, staging areas, defiles and so forth. Instead, even with the crow's view available and not playing in iron mode, I sit there helpless to stop the infantry assault for want of a suitable perch. LOS in that scenario sucks and seems specifically designed to drive the American commander mad, whereas the Germans have eyes running the length of the ridge and use them to devastating effect. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted June 22, 2012 Author Share Posted June 22, 2012 Childress, I've now got a stack of screenshots, but ran into problems with ImageShack. Got one pic up, but the site seems to be glitching and won't let me upload, say, a dozen pics. Not sure what I'm doing wrong, having actually gotten one to upload. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 You're almost there... (FWIW, I only started using Iron Mode in the last couple of months. I'd been comfortable with the next one down (Veteran, Elite?) and got prodded into it for a PBEM game. Iron is my new favorite. ) John, you can select EITHER friendly or enemy units. Whichever you select provides a level of information. - Friendly selected: You see all units/contacts which that friendly unit knows about. - Enemy selected: You see all FRIENDLY units which have IDENTIFIED that enemy. So, with nothing selected, you see a Panther near a bridge. Let's kill it. Select the Panther. Now, look about. Which friendly units are highlighted? Good. Select each of them in turn and TARGET the Panther. Any un-highlighted friendlies near the highlighted friendlies? Move the un-highlighted ones a bit closer and add a COVER ARC. Pretty soon you'll have every unit you own hammering that Panther. (Of course, if they're just rifle-armed soldiers, it won't do much good and may even anger the Panther. It's not smart to anger a Panther. ) Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted June 22, 2012 Author Share Posted June 22, 2012 c3k, Thanks, and that last line cracked me up! Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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