For meta-gaming

[mjkerner]

This looks to be promising for a smaller Op campaign, broadsword:

http://www.gmtgames.com/p-315-operation-dauntless.aspx

[noob]

This looks to be promising for a smaller Op campaign, broadsword:

http://www.gmtgames.com/p-315-operation-dauntless.aspx

I've never played paper wargames so could you enlighten me, how do they simulate operational FOW ?

[Broadsword56]

@mjkerner:

I'd never seen Operation Dauntless before -- the scale and location all look excellent. Not familiar with that game system. But it looks like it has all the essentials.

@noob:

Some ways board wargames simulate operational FOW is with some mechanisms (activation rules, chit-pull systems) that randomize which units can activate to do something, and randomize how much a given unit will be able to do in a given time period. So even though you see all the enemy counters attacking you in a certain place, you won't necessarily be able to make your units react to the attack or bring needed reinforcements there in time. That also makes these types of games well-suited for solo play. Some games even have "automatons" built in (just a table of variable results) where you can use die rolls to determine which enemy formations activate on a given turn.

[sburke]

@Noob

How good would you say the operational AI is in PC:N44 ?

Does it give a real challenge?

No not particularly.

Just to throw another scale into the mix, I am still tinkering with the Gamers TCS stuff. I prefer the platoon/individual tank and gun scale and 125 yard hexes/20 minute turns and the command and control variables for being able to implement orders add an element to the game that really appeals. They also have a couple modules up on vassal as well. (unfortunately not Bloody Omaha however). What I really like though is you can just use the rules, your own map and your own OoB and no need to buy a game. If you run a campaign for others, you just have them fill out their op sheets and then apply them to the reinforcement schedule.

All that of course being said w/o having actually tried it yet.... ahh to be back in front of my pc and able to launch the game....sigh.

[noob]

If a battle is to be resolved at the operational level it is done using the formulas from T N Dupuy. (Just whack his name in Google and Amazon and you will find his work.) This gives three results. Defenders casualties, attacker’s casualties and distance advanced if any. As his work is all about “predicting..” outcomes I add a roll of the dice at the end with the predicted result set to seven and increasing or decreasing if another number comes up. I don’t want the formulas giving perfect predictions.

I should of mentioned the Panzer Campaign Assault function does pretty much the same.

[kipanderson]

Broadsword, hi,

That's amazing news about the companion game. Did BFC ever confirm that it was happening or that it had their official blessing/support? Hope it comes to fruition.

The guy said he was setting out on the task with the official blessing of Battlefront. It is not a mod but a real game that I guess he approached Battlefront with and they said yes, give it a go.

Time will tell, but I am optimistic.

Noob, the point about T N Dupuy and his formulas is that they are the real deal. Historically accurate, or as close as one can get.

All the best,

Kip.

[noob]

Noob, the point about T N Dupuy and his formulas is that they are the real deal. Historically accurate, or as close as one can get.

All the best,

Kip.

To be honest i get intimidated when it comes to reading through rules and calculus, that's why i have been pursuing a fully automated umpireless campaign system, so i have decided not to use Dupuy or the PzC assault function and to make all contacts CMBN battles.

The reason is that in a PzC operation the smallest foot unit is the Company and vehicle unit the Platoon, which is a standard OOB for most CMBN custom scenarios, so every contact will create a potentially interesting CM battle.

However if the disparity in strength of the opposing forces is too much the weaker side will have the option of making a forced retreat with morale penalties to avoid a CM battle it does not want to fight.

This allows the tactic of occupying hexes without a CM battle by just intimidating the opponent with force strength.

[Broadsword56]

That's interesting noob. And it reminds me that in the op-tac Saint-Lo campaign I've been running, virtually all the ground gained by the US has been won at the op level by maneuver rather than by direct combat, or by indirect fire (artillery barrages, airstrikes).

[noob]

And it reminds me that in the op-tac Saint-Lo campaign I've been running, virtually all the ground gained by the US has been won at the op level by maneuver rather than by direct combat, or by indirect fire (artillery barrages, airstrikes).

This is why, in my operational system, on the micro level, the morale of the units is determined by a forces ability to stand and fight over time, and not casulaties.

This means the onus is always on units to take and/or hold ground, or to retreat in order, as being forced to retreat is the worst thing that can happen to a unit irrespective of casualties, for example if a defending force sustains 70% casualties but succeeds in holding a CM map until reinforced it's morale will increase even if it's casualties are high.

Conversely if a defending force is forced to exit a CM map because a flank has collapsed and the attackers units have the opportunity for a tactical encirclement then their morale will decrease despite potentially light losses.

This is why i have imposed differing morale penalties based on the turns a unit chooses to use the CM exit zones provided in an operational CM battle.

Consequently, on the macro level, anyone with a "stand and fight" mentality will be aware of the price of hubris, and will, if wise, avoid any extremely one sided battles (unless necessary) by using the option of taking a lesser morale hit by making a strategical withdrawal.

However one thing that occurred to me was what happens if a heroic stand in a CM battle succeeds and the smaller force remains on the CM map after the 60 turns run out, it would be impossible to recreate the exact tactical situation in the event of renewed attacks during subsequent operational turns on the same CM map, that's why i'm probably going to make the operational CM battles 4 hours long with units being able to reload from ammo trucks in covered areas at the rear of the CM maps, and also use a system of predictive reinforcement, so operational units that are in certain ranges of the contested hex could appear at their allotted time in a 4 hour battle, however the devil is in the detail so watch this space.

p.s.

The operational CM maps will be 3000 x 3000 mtrs.