Questions for Steve (General PBEM) #6

[Guest Big Time Software]

It is Turn 20 and some, probably most, think Fionn has had it. I agree that it doesn't look good, but I always try to make the best of a bad situation...

Yeah, it will be tough. Here is the plan I suggested to Fionn (mind you, tank and artillery issues have been decided).

Move left flank forces of roughly 2.5 platoons into the woods south of the town. There is an HMG 42 available for support.

Push the platoon and change up the middle and keep them on his side of the river. Use them and other support weapons to get the remains or the US platoon away from the bridge (this shouldn't be hard).

Take the roughly 1.5 platoons of VGs on the right flank and push them over the river into the woods north of the town.

This gives him the ability to attack the town from three directions at once, with the main effort in the south. Martin, on the other hand, has to spread his forces around to defend from all sides. This is why Fionn stands a chance.

Slowly feel out where Martin's strength is allocated, engage in exchange of fire for a while, then push the nearly full strength SS platoon in the south into the village. Then leapfrog the second, partial, SS platoon into the village. Finally move the VGs closer and perhaps into the village. Forces in the center will move up to where the US platoon fragments are, supported by 2 HTs.

Right flank will just look for cross fire opportunitites, but other wise keep Martin from moving around much.

I figure it will take him until Turn 30 to get this all set up, and about Turn 35 to know if it worked or not. Here are my predictions:

Fionn gets wiped out trying to take up positions - 0%

Fionn gets hit hard enough to make the above plan impossible - 25%

Fionn manages to take southern outskits and the bridge (or at least denny them to Martin) - 75%

Fionn actually manages to take a ring of houses in south, center, north - 50%

Fionn takes the whole village, including the appartment complex - 10%

Point here is that if Fionn can take the outskirts, Martin will lose all the Victory Locations. This will make it a tie in terms of VLs. The deciding factor will come in when casualites are added up. From a scenario perspective, I would rate Fionn the marginal winner from the tactical standpoint. However, if this were a campaign, I would say he won the battle but lost the campaign.

Pixman asked if there is incentive to end the game early. In a stand alone scenario there is, but not as much as a campaign. If Martin felt that he was going to lose the town for sure (say Fionn had a couple more tanks and infantry) he would retain more victory points by getting his guys off the map and simply letting Fionn role in. But as Martin's Turn 20 AAR shows, disengaging can be tricky work.

Steve

[Pixman]

Thanks Steve -- great post and proof positive that you know a bit about tactics.

From what you said, I take it the north Sherman got taken out by either the PzIV, the Puma or the VG panzerfausts. You don't have to confirm or deny, just conjecture. That certainly makes it more interesting.

Thanks for clarifying the withdrawal incentive issue. I figured as much since your goal is to model reality and, realistically, it makes sense to live to fight another day rather than die in vain.

I'd like to comment about something Fionn said in a recent AAR. He asserted his belief that he was sounder with AFVs and that he thought Martin handled infantry better. From what I can see, just the opposite is true.

1. Handling of vehicles: Other than two VERY lucky shots early by Fionn, Martin chose his vehicle placements pretty well and has done little to expose those that still survive. The placement of the north Sherman was brilliant. Unfortunately, point 2 that I am about to make ultimately made this Sherman very vulnerable. I think Fionn has handled his AFVs well overall. Obviously, he has no recourse aginst the winged Gods in the sky.

2. Handling of infantry: Although Fionn showed early disregard for command and control (and paid for it), I believe that Martin's willingness to squander support weapons (MGs and Bazookas) is a much more grievous error. I am not referring to the extreme eastern bazooka ambushes. I think these were good because the potential reward of immobilizing a lead vehicle, thus bottling up the road, was worth the risk. But the eastern MG team was a total waste.

Once Fionn broke into the open, he should have run into a collapsing series of flanking MG and Bazooka positions. Each layer should have been able to support the retreat of the one in front of it. Instead, it seems like we are constantly watching weapons teams running for their lives at the last minute because the PGs or AFVs are almost on top of them.

I also think trying to hold those center positions was a bust because there were no forces on the flanks to punish units assaulting those positions, allowing Fionn to defeat them in detail. There is also no place to retreat to out there once a position becomes untenable. Those squads that got routed out of the house and eventually killed or captured by the Panther/Puma would have been much more useful in the north woods to begin with supporting the Sherman. Put a bazooka team or two over there and that north flank becomes Fionn's worst nightmare (other than arty and Jabos ) because units in the town can support it as well.

I know this is a lot of arm chair generalship on my part, but I have never believed in putting men on islands. After reviewing the map and set-up locations again, I am convinced that forcing Fionn to attack a north woods stronghold from the southeast would have proven very costly, especially if there were places in the SW where Martin could have tucked a couple of Shermans as he did in the NW (I cannot tell this from the screen shots).

My last point (and the straw that finally made me start commenting) is that, once Martin got the town, he started forward deploying (toward the river) Bazookas and MGs AGAIN! Not to mention exposing that platoon of infantry in the woods by the river. I believe they will go the way of the wall/house defenders and, once again, have nowhere to run when they break.

Wasn't it Patton who said (paraphrasing) "Seems a terrible waste of some damn fine infantry" ?

Okay, rant over. I have resisted making tactical comments until now. Thanks for your indulgence.

By the way, I did not mention Fionn's attack out of the town because I think Colonel Klink must have got control of the town's defenders for a turn or two!!

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The enchanter may confuse the outcome, but the effort remains sublime.

[Doug Beman]

"SCHULTZ!!! Who ordered the charge to glory?! If you allowed Hogan to meddle with my troop deployments, it's the steppe for you!"

"I hear nuzzink, I see nuzzink."

DjB

ps maybe that IS what happened! Steve, were any of those US POWs named "Hogan?"

[Simon Fox]

"But as Martin's Turn 20 AAR shows, disengaging can be tricky work."

Actually I think that the AAR shows that disengaging TOO LATE without making any provision/planning for it or arranging for suitable/sufficient supporting fire for it or providing smoke or arty to cover it makes it tricky work. I agree with Pixman, from the very outset Martin declared his intention to delay and then retreat but his dispositions didn't really allow sufficient mutual support. By the way has Martin got any arty left?

[Guest Big Time Software]

Pixman,

Overall, I think Fionn has handled his vehicles better than infantry, and Martin pretty much even on both counts. The Sherman to the North was still alive last time I saw it, but I doubt it will be for long It caused Fionn some problems, but like his infantry screen, is doomed. One hope is tightail it off the edge of the map.

I agree that Martin wasted some valuable assets. Simon hit the nail on the head. Martin's village force hadn't redeployed in time to offer the outlying blocking force fire support. So while his little outposts were being overrun, the bulk of his force wasn't in position. At first there was nothing that he could do about this, but once the wall line was lost he should have pulled all his various support teams back pronto. Looks like he underestimated the time to get the guys back to friendly lines. Problem was Fionn was back on the offensive again and made a bold move with 4 HTs along the southern road. This caught several teams in the process of trying to get over the river.

I think all of Martin's artillery is used up.

Steve

[Doug Beman]

Steve, how accurate were ground attack aircraft during WW2? What "baseline" numbers do you use? It just seems that Martin's plane was more accurate than I've read was the norm.

Also, what sorta modifiers come into play from interference from AA stuff? That stuff was almost entirely missing from the attack runs that killed the Panther and Stug, right? Was there any influence on the plane that we did not see graphically?

DjB

[dano6]

Steve, I was wondering if was possible for troops to locate themselves on the roofs of buildings. This would be an incredible advantage for the manportable AT weapons as they could get shots onto the top armor of tanks. I saw where fausts and zooks won't be allowed to fire from windows or houses due to the backblast from the propellant. It seems as if there is enough time, an ambush from the roof behind the parapet would be pretty devastating. Just an idea. I know on alot of buildings the roofs have been blown away due to artillery.

[Dar]

I imagine that in battle, anything that can happen often will. There have been a few surprising actions in this battle so far, like the StuG taking out the hull-down Jumbo; the Panther immobilising the Sherman behind the house, which was later taken out along with the house; and the dead-eye (Holzauge!) pilot nailing the Panther one turn and the other StuG in the next breath.

However, this is only one battle, and I wouldn't put too much stock in the results from one battle. That's where a multitude of Beta testers comes in handy. If Beta testers start noticing a trend after recreating scenario after scenario after scenario, then perhaps something should be done.

Steve, do your Beta testers have any automation capability and do you expect to have rigidly defined criteria for them to follow? I.e., will someone concentrate on something like trying to move vehicles into forbidden terrain (houses, rivers, trees, off-map, etc.) while another person concentrates on vehicle collision handling, another person look for LOS/LOF inconsistencies, and so forth?

Thanks,

Dar Steckelberg

[Guest Big Time Software]

Doug, that pilot got damned lucky. The conditions he found were picture perfect. Winter, few trees, lots of vehicles, many of them stationary, and no enemy AAA fire. Any pilot worth his salt could have destroyed that many vehicles in one go. A single plane, with just MG fire, could take out 3-8 vehicles (just making this number up) in ONE PASS if they were on a road, in column, and the plane coming straight on. Pretty much anything that plane hits (heavy armor excluded) is dead meat.

There would have been less damage likely if vehicles could use their own AA MGs, but at the moment they can't. So there was nothing to shake that pilot up.

Dano6, no go on roofs. Too variable. Most houses in Europe either didn't have roof access or had roofs that were too steep to sit on. Plus, you would be easily spotted.

Dar, we are generally going to let the Beta testers play and make observations. If we think there is an area of concern (most often brought up by a tester), then we will put the word out and have people pay attention to it. This is what we have been doing with first me, and now Fionn, Martin, and Patrick. Works really well.

Steve

[Ken Talley]

Is the flying "shell" image a placeholder? It kind of looks like a flying box. Although I imagine in normal speed we probably would just see a streak and it wouldn't make a shred of difference what the shape was. This is an irrelevant question for the day but I am curious.

Ken

[Larry Marks]

Steve, during playback can the players see or only hear aircraft? Also, can AA have any effect on aircraft? Thanks.

Larry

[Guest Big Time Software]

Ken, to save on polygons and VRAM, that is all it will ever be. Normally all you can sense is "something flying", so why waste precious resources. Unless you are using an 88, then you can't see the thing at all

Larry, all you can see is the shaddow when it comes in for an attack. Scares the pants off you, even if it is your plane (they can shoot the wrong stuff you know ). AA fire can damge, destroy, or scare off a plane. Heavier the fire, greener the pilot, better the chance.

Steve

[Rhet]

Steve,

Is the smoke dipiction (thin rising cloud) from smoke projectors or smoke shells final? I thought that the chemical smoke that was generated by these shells was designed to be low lying smoke.

If I were a weapons designer I would try to develope a smoke projector or smoke shell that generated a wider footprint. If you are using smoke shells you are trying to either mark a location or block LOS of the enemy. It seems that if the smoke was composed of small light weight particles it would rise high in a dispersing column (good for marking a position). This thin column would not be very effective for blocking LOS as I would assume the enemy would slightly shift position to get a clear LOS. In looking at what the Germans used for their AFV smoke projectors (zinc dust & hexalchlorethane) it appears that they use heavier smoke particles so that the smoke disperses more laterally. I don't have much of a basis for this determination but it would seem logical.

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Rhet

[Guest Big Time Software]

The graphical depiction of smoke is not directly related to the game system's treatment of it. It is more or less there to mark the area, but be a true representation. The LOS tool tells you where the boundaries are. Also remember that what you are looking at, graphically, is a smoke column with its base being about 5m diameter. I think smoke effects are about twice that area? Something like that. Anyhoo, they do block LOS quite well.

Steve

[Pixman]

I told you that northern Sherman placement was brilliant. Also, Martin's use of smoke from the Sherman in town to protect from the PzIV was a masterstroke.

My respect for Fionn's use of AFVs to date is dropping. Sending that Puma out there was criminal. If Fionn is going to try an approach like that he needs to employ the doctrine of "too many targets". That is, the Puma may have made the rush that it did, but it should have been in conjunction with a bold rush from the PzIV and the infantry with AT weapons in the woods (if the infantry are not in position yet, then wait, the Puma and PzIV had plenty of soft targets to chew up).

By facing 3 threats at one time, the Sherman would have had to choose a target and very likely fall victim to one of the two he didn't choose. The net result would be that Fionn may still lose the Puma, but he would get the Sherman in return -- a trade I would take any day (You don't mind trading a rook for a queen). Now the Sherman is free to keep his front armor to the PzIV and hope to get a lucky shot.

Note: I know Fionn was trying to use the PzIV in conjunction with the Puma but, obviously, that was not enough. He needed the infantry involved too.

It is going to be interesting when the smoke clears. If Fionn is smart, he will use the cover of smoke to race his PSWs forward and move the PzIV into a kill position on the Sherman with his front armor facing him. The PzIV can probably take a front shot from the Sherman while it has already been proven that the Sherman cannot take one from the PzIV.

Question: How long does the smoke last?

On Martin's side of the ball, my fears about his forward force in the woods near the bridge are ringing true. They will break with nowhere to run and become KIAs or POWs. It remains to be seen how much damage they cause before this happens.

It looks like on the south hill Martin can cause Fionn some pretty heavy damage during his assault into the woods. But these guys, too, are isolated. So, if they break, they will also become POWs. "Nowhere to run to baby, nowhere to hide....". I gues they could retreat off of the board if the going gets too tough. If they inflict enough damage on the approaching Germans in the process, then it will probably be worth it. At least Martin has 2 MGs sitting BEHIND a strong infantry screen. This is a much better deployment strategy than his earlier ones where the MGs were forward deployed with little infantry support.

Armchair tactical commentary provided by Pixman. Please release some form of the game soon so I can shut up.

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The enchanter may confuse the outcome, but the effort remains sublime.

[Thomm]

For smoke I would like to see slowly expanding semi-transparent hexagonal prisms !

Of course this would add 6+2*6=18 triangles to the list, but I think it would add a lot of what-you-see-is-what-you-get. If this is not possible then maybe a different, non-mushroom-type cloud could be selected to distinguish smoke rounds from burning vehicles !

Regards,

Thomm

PS.: Please lower vehicles on snow and mud !!!

[Rhet]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Also remember that what you are looking at, graphically, is a smoke column with its base being about 5m diameter. I think smoke effects are about twice that area?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This sounds pretty good for a smoke projector off an AFV but the area affected by a smoke shell seems that it should be larger. Just judging by the weight of the smoke shell (approx. 85 lbs) vs the AFV smoke grenades (approx. 5 lbs) it appears that the affected area should be atleast twice that area (say on the order of 20 to 25 meters dia.).

Could a smoke texture be developed for the shell explosions? If so, you could use a 150mm smoke textured explosion to represent the area affected by a smoke shell and a small morter explosion say 60mm could be used for smoke projectors. Of course the expansion of the cloud would have to be slowed down to make it look right. Just a suggestion...

Pixman, smoke from a German AFV smoke projector was designed to last from 4 to 7 minutes. Its just a guess but I would suspect a 105mm smoke shell would last around 8 to 12 minutes.

BTW, I think the duration of effective smoke should be randomly determined since wind effects are not currently modeled in CM. Charles has probably coded something like this up already.

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Rhet

[Pixman]

Rhet, thanks. However, the smoke I was talking about was that fired by the immobilized Sherman to protect the northern Sherman from the PzIV. So I'll use your 4 to 7 minute figure.

I agree that WYSIWYG would be great for the smoke graphic with regard to LOS. But, if you cannot do it, no problem. We'll just have to remember that smoke violates your 3D "if you can see it, you can hit it" rule.

Pixman

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The enchanter may confuse the outcome, but the effort remains sublime.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Pixman, yeah, Fionn made a MAJOR mistake with the Puma. Moving it to where it was wasn't such a bad idea. It gave him three options:

1. Stay in a concealed position so that if the Sherman tried to withdraw he could nail it with the Puma.

2. Stay in said position until PzIV engaged the Sherman, then rush into firing position and nail it.

3. Rush the Puma into position before the Sherman got a chance to rotate its hull and nail it form the side.

Fionn's mistake was that he waited at least a turn to rush the Puma up, and therefore the Sherman was ready for him. But the HUGE mistake was that Fionn used "Fast" instead of "Hunt". This killed the Puma for certain as "Fast" witholds fire while "Hunt" stops the moment a good shot presents itself. I experimented with this myself and the Puma went to hull down position and popped the Sherman before it even got its turret full rotated. Fionn's error on the order type meant that the Puma never had the chance.

As for Martin's mistakes with team weapons, I have already boxed both his ears He totally underestimated how long it was going to take to withdraw them and how fast Fionn could advance. I don't think he will be making that mistake again.

Thomm, no transparent smoke. Far too expensive. Next version we should be able to swing it for sure. Same for multi-dimensional smoke. Just too many smoke columns on the map at one time (I think there is over a dozen right now).

Rhet, yeah, smoke works something like that.

Pixman, I misspoke... the graphical size of the smoke does show the boundaries, just Charles hasn't tweaked them to be in sync yet.

Steve

[Rhet]

Steve, may I ask to what part you were refering to?

I am glad that the smoke graphic will be tweaked to match the LOS boundary. It will help the player determine the LOS boundaries more quickly.

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Rhet

[Guest Bobb]

Could smoke be given a lighter shade of black to distinguish it from that heavy black oily stuff, a grey intermediate to the darkest terrain level and the black smoke?

[Doug Beman]

I think Fionn should not move the PzIV into town. With the death of the last of Martin's mobile long-range AT firepower, that Panzer can move anywhere outside of town and shell the crap out of the US forces. It could even cross the bridge and immediately swing south to cut up the southern US flank (providing this does not open the Panzer for a shot from Martin's last Sherman)

If Fionn's last Panzer can remain alive through the rather silly order to rush the town, I think this one will be a draw; Fionn will likely inflict heavier casualties than he sustains (with the Panzer's help) and could possibly grab the southern half of town.

For Martin to make this a clear US victory, he has to get lucky with his infantry AT stuff and kill at least the Panzer, and (even better) some of those HTs moving over the bridge. If he does that, and can move infantry around the center of town without German interference, he can catch Fionn's southern assault in a West&North crossfire. I really don't think the northern German troops will be able to push across the river; they've been hacked up already.

DjB

[Guest Big Time Software]

Rhet, uhm, being specific would help, wouldn't it? Effective smoke time is somewhat random, to simulate shifting winds and other smoke OhOhs. But your figure of roughly 4-7 minutes for the AFV is about right. I am not 100% sure, but I think Martin's Sherman smoke lasted about 5 minutes. I passed on your thoughts and Pixmans to Charles in any case. Not sure what a 105 smoke round does, but it might not last longer, but instead produce a larger smoke screen.

Bobb, would love to but that would require a huge hit to VRAM. Each frame of that smoke animation takes up memory. Changing colors means new art. New art means more VRAM We tried some other methods of smoke that were kinder on VRAM, and offered the dark and light variations, but it looked like utter crap, so it got yanked. This is an easy area to improve when we drop 4MB video cards (hopefully by the next version??).

Doug, yes, Fionn is being quite silly with is remaining AFVs. Or, to look at it another way, he is still in need of some Unlearning I am sure that he will lose something before the game is through. If he doesn't it will be due to luck and nothing more. Fionn is trying the bait and blast tactics, where guys will pop out to fire at his armor and then he can wail on them. But CM's TacAI is too smart for that and the only thing that is going to shoot at that PzIV will be able to kill it. And Fionn also is forgetting that the points he will lose from the lost AFVs might actually kill his chance of a vicotry.

Live and learn

To be fair to both Martin and Fionn, this is their first to the bitter end scenario they have ever fought. The end game is so totally different than the middle and beginning. Both players keep sending me emails telling me that they have NEVER played a game like this in their lives. They are both confident in winning and losing at the same time. Lots of chewed off fingernails between the two of 'em

Steve

[Simon Fox]

I am glad that Doug and Pixman have voiced their criticisms. Sure many of their errors can be ascribed to "unlearning" old habits but I think that some plain common sense and most of all PATIENCE would have made the most difference. Fionn may have made a big error with his fast vs hunt order but what the hell was he doing charging that Sherman with a Puma that was already causing Martin plenty of grief. Especially as he had the infantry and PzIV to deal with it. Lucky for him Martin was equally silly and got greedy once he cooked the Puma and tried to bag the PzIV. Boy was that dumb! The Sherman in the N didn't have to do anything for the rest of the scenario if he could get it in a safe spot. By it's mere presence it could both modify and delay Fionn's attack. It is interesting to read the swings of fortune in the AARs. A few turns back I would have sworn Fionn had no chance after Martin got his armour and came off fairly well from the arty (rightly so IMO). I better stop here otherwise I'll be earning the diatribe nome de plume. Of course if we had our hands on the game we might not be so vociferous in our criticism of others as we would be making our own mistakes and a bit of jealousy might be creeping in there too

[Guest Big Time Software]

Although racing the Puma around the corner wouldn't have been my first pick, it could have worked out REALLY well. Think of it. Martin's back to the edge, smoke blocking its LOS to the infantry AND the PzIV. Had the Puma done nothing but sit there it would have left Martin with only two options:

1) Reverse off the map edge

2) Die

Fionn could have acheived this without racing the Puma around the corner, but it did assure that the Sherman was well cornered (and as sated many times, losing the Puma was totally avoidable and silly).

"PATIENCE" is one of the HARDEST thigns to learn in any wargame. The problem is that CM's movement and firing system, along with its realism, makes impatience much more deadly. In Steel Panthers, for example, if I get it in my craw that I am going to be hasty, and I move something up too fast, and it gets whacked, I get an instant reminder of why caution is a good thing. Since I am not forced to stick to my plan I can suddenly become rational and not move anything else forward. In CM you will have what happened to Fionn. He made hasty attacks and got cut to ribbons before he even understood what happend. Martin thought he could hold onto his positions for another turn and the next was overrun. So hesitation and hasty moves in CM are dealt with pretty harshly

Steve