Blue and Gray

[A Canadian Cat]

this in the briefing: "Vierville Draw was surrounded by steep bluffs impassable to vehicles; thus, the narrow lane that split the bluffs was an immediate objective beacuse it was a passage way for vehicles coming off the beach." C'mon! follow directions!

Well look at that - clearly I did not study my briefing very well.

[JonS]

Really nice work Crushingleek.

I lost about 450 men KIA and WIA in the first battle :eek: But forced a surrender (with about 45 mins to go, I think), so got a Major Victory. A Co had 2 men left upright, and the Rangers had maybe 3.

Now on to the second battle, which looks like it's going to be about as equally brutal :eek:

A few observations and suggestions:

US D-Day assault battalions altered their organisation quite extensively in order to fit inside the US Higgins boats and UK LCAs. I thought Balkoski's site had diagrams, but I can't find them currently :confused: Anyway, the org was quite different, but I think you'd be able to create a pretty good approximation by directly attaching scout, breaching, a 60mm mortar, and BAR teams to platoons, and limiting the total in each platoon to 35 men (the capacity of each LCA), and having the whole platoon grouped pretty tightly at start or as reinforcements to show them coming off the front of the LCx together. You could also spread each reinforcement 'blob' over a couple of reinforcement slots (each with the same designated time, and a +5 or +10 variance) so that each wave arrives somewhat staggered, rather than all together. Edit: I see the boat team organisation is in a couple of appendicies to Balkoski's (very good) "Omaha Beach." You can view them by using Amazon's 'look inside' feature. Balkoski also talks about, though in much less detail, the orgn of the assault teams of the heavy weapons companies. Those too should be more-or-less acheivable by editting the HW Company platoons directly, dopping some elements and adding others. The key point that comes out, I think, is that each boat team was much more than a simple rifle platoon, or a 'standard' heavy weapons platoon - it was a reasonably balanced and self contained combat unit, able to look after itself and overcome almost any resistance or obstacle it was liikely to encounter on the beaches.

I'm not a German fortifications geek, but I had thought that they tended to set up their pillboxes so they presented a solid wall to seaward, and the weapons openings facing obliquely down the beach. That way overlapping fire covered neighbouring postions to create interlocking arcs, rather than each position being solely concerned with it's direct front. A-Tk guns can't go in the bunkers, but you might be able to hide the guns behind the bunkers so the can fire in enfilade, and/or use terrain like walls and bocage to screen the guns directly to seaward.

In the second battle of the campaign some of the US tanks seem to be armed with 76mm. I'm reasonably sure that there weren't any 76mm in Normandy until ... July? and the DD tanks were all short 75mms anyway since the DD floatation screens couldn't cope with a barrel which extended over the tank hull.

Thanks

Jon

[JonS]

Rifle Platoon Boat Team

1 Boat Tm Ldr

2 A Boat Tm Ldr

3 Rifle 1

4 Rifle 2

5 Rifle 3

6 Rifle 4

7 Rifle 5

8 Wire 1

9 Wire 2

10 Wire 3

11 Wire 4

12 BAR 11

13 BAR 12

14 BAR 21

15 BAR 22

16 60mm Mortar 1

17 60mm Mortar 2

18 60mm Mortar 3

19 60mm Mortar 4

20 Baz 11

21 Baz 12

22 Baz 21

23 Baz 22

24 Flame 1

25 Flame 2

26 Dems 1

27 Dems 2

28 Dems 3

29 Dems 4

30 Dems 5

31 Medic

Weapons Platoon Boat Team

1 Boat Tm Ldr

2 A Boat Tm Ldr

3 Rifle 1

4 Rifle 2

5 Rifle 3

6 Rifle 4

7 Rifle 5

8 Wire 1

9 Wire 2

10 Wire 3

11 Wire 4

12 HMG 1

13 HMG 2

14 HMG 3

15 HMG 4

16 HMG 5

17 81mm Mortar 1

18 81mm Mortar 2

19 81mm Mortar 3

20 81mm Mortar 4

21 81mm Mortar 5

22 81mm Mortar 6

23 81mm Mortar 7

24 81mm Mortar 8

25 Dems 1

26 Dems 2

27 Dems 3

28 Dems 4

29 Dems 5

30 Medic

I think you could probably ignore the medic in each boat team.

[JonS]

In CMBN terms, a Rifle Platoon Boat Team could be

US Inf Bn - Rifle Company - Rifle platoon

. Platoon HQ (3 men)

. 1 Squad (includes 1 bar team and one Bazooka team, and men from flamethrower team as simple riflemen) (10 men)

. 2 Squad [deleted]

. 3 Squad [deleted]

. 60mm mortar team (Specialist Team added to platoon) (4 men)

. BAR team (Specialist Team added to platoon) (2 men)

. Bazooka team (Specialist Team added to platoon) (2 men)

. 2 x Breach team (Specialist Team added to platoon) (3 men each)

Total: 27 men

Or, alternately:

US Inf Bn - Rifle Company - Rifle platoon

. Platoon HQ (3 men)

. 1 Squad (80% cas reduction, includes 1 bar team and one Bazooka team) (8 men)

. 2 Squad (90% cas reduction, includes 1 bar team and one Bazooka team, and men from flamethrower team as simple riflemen) (9 men)

. 3 Squad [deleted]

. 60mm mortar team (Specialist Team added to platoon) (4 men)

. 2 x Breach team (Specialist Team added to platoon) (3 men each)

Total: 30 men

[JonS]

In CMBN terms, a Weapons Platoon Boat Team could be

US Inf Bn - Rifle Company - Rifle platoon

. Platoon HQ (3 men)

. 1 Squad (80% cas reduction, includes a 1 BAR, set to exclude Bazooka) (8 men)

. 2 Squad [deleted]

. 3 Squad [deleted]

. 81mm mortar team (Specialist Team added to platoon) (cas reduction adjusted so that mortar and ammn team combine to 8 men)

. HMG Team (Specialist Team added to platoon) (4 men)

. 2 x Breach team (Specialist Team added to platoon) (3 men each)

Total: 29 men

[Crushingleeek]

Excellent suggestions. I will look into this re-organization when RL permits. Thanks for all the info.

and... NICE JOB! That major victory is more than I could ever muster up in my play-testing. But I knew I wasn't the best CMBN player; I imagined it'd be do-able, and it's great to hear that it is.

[JonS]

You're welcome. By the by, I just re-read the first page and noticed you were struggling to get good elevation data. If you aren't already aware of it, you need to be using Geoportail. The maps are current, so a lot of the major routes are new since WWII, towns and villages have grown, and railways have disappeared. Also, AIUI, use of bocage has gone in to precipitous decline so the number of fields (and therefore hedgerows) has dramatically reduced as the size of fields has swelled to accomodate modern farming techniques. But in a lot of cases - especially in the more rural areas - you can still tell what went where in 1944. And, aside from all that, elevation tends not to change much, even over the course of 70-odd years.

If you use the Geoportail maps in conjunction with the 1947 IGN Boutique Photos aerial photos, you have a really poweful combination. Excellent topography with period-relevant land forms.

[permanent666]

In CMBN terms, a Rifle Platoon Boat Team could be

US Inf Bn - Rifle Company - Rifle platoon

. Platoon HQ (3 men)

. 1 Squad (includes 1 bar team and one Bazooka team, and men from flamethrower team as simple riflemen) (10 men)

. 2 Squad [deleted]

. 3 Squad [deleted]

. 60mm mortar team (Specialist Team added to platoon) (4 men)

. BAR team (Specialist Team added to platoon) (2 men)

. Bazooka team (Specialist Team added to platoon) (2 men)

. 2 x Breach team (Specialist Team added to platoon) (3 men each)

Total: 27 men

Or, alternately:

US Inf Bn - Rifle Company - Rifle platoon

. Platoon HQ (3 men)

. 1 Squad (80% cas reduction, includes 1 bar team and one Bazooka team) (8 men)

. 2 Squad (90% cas reduction, includes 1 bar team and one Bazooka team, and men from flamethrower team as simple riflemen) (9 men)

. 3 Squad [deleted]

. 60mm mortar team (Specialist Team added to platoon) (4 men)

. 2 x Breach team (Specialist Team added to platoon) (3 men each)

Total: 30 men

maybe you should have a look at my scenario:

http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=314&func=fileinfo&id=1372

i tried to recreate the boat teams described.

[Crushingleeek]

will do, thanks!

[JonS]

maybe you should have a look at my scenario:

http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=314&func=fileinfo&id=1372

I tried to recreate the boat teams described.

Would you consider uploading a modified version of that as a OoB "scenario" for other designers to use?

Like this one for Pz Lehr:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=103190&highlight=lehr

There is also my own much more modest OoB addition, on the Repository, of a British self-propelled artillery regiment:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=103133&highlight=propelled

[JonS]

Second battle, US Major Victory via German surrender with 24mins remaining. US lost another 210 men KIA and WIA. A reasonable number of those were to friendly artillery fire, especially from the BB. I basically conducted a right-flanking move - I smashed the right flank with DD and mortars and tank fire, then finished it off with BB fire before moving up the bluffs, then left wheel, and advance along the ladder with a platoon(+) while the remainder cleaned up all the dead bodies.

Are those four a-tk gun ammo teams supposed to be skulking away in the back corner? They look a little odd there.

Because of the way the map is set up, there is an unusual dynamic that comes into play. IIRC, this company - C Company - wheeled right towards the Vierville Draw, but the way this may is set up the trend, at least as I played it, was to wheel left away from Vierville. I only sent a two man patrol over towards that corner of the map.

[JonS]

Mission 3: "Heroes go home in bodybags" is an anachronism.

[Crushingleeek]

Second battle, US Major Victory via German surrender with 24mins remaining. US lost another 210 men KIA and WIA. A reasonable number of those were to friendly artillery fire, especially from the BB. I basically conducted a right-flanking move - I smashed the right flank with DD and mortars and tank fire, then finished it off with BB fire before moving up the bluffs, then left wheel, and advance along the ladder with a platoon(+) while the remainder cleaned up all the dead bodies.

Are those four a-tk gun ammo teams supposed to be skulking away in the back corner? They look a little odd there.

Because of the way the map is set up, there is an unusual dynamic that comes into play. IIRC, this company - C Company - wheeled right towards the Vierville Draw, but the way this may is set up the trend, at least as I played it, was to wheel left away from Vierville. I only sent a two man patrol over towards that corner of the map.

thanks for the summary! I think you are right, C company, along with Dutch Cota went toward Vierville. damn BB friendly fire!

what you say must be true, I did the same thing you did. right flank --> left sweep.

those ammo teams were supposed to just keep anyone who got sloppy towards the end on their toes... ie not major resistance, but scare you if you only approached with a broken scout team. looks like i should have done the same for the vierville side, at least for you!

[Crushingleeek]

Mission 3: "Heroes go home in bodybags" is an anachronism.

oops. i'll change that to boxes?

[JonS]

those ammo teams were supposed to just keep anyone who got sloppy towards the end on their toes... ie not major resistance, but scare you if you only approached with a broken scout team. looks like i should have done the same for the vierville side, at least for you!

Oh, well, ok. Two in each corner, mayber? Each pair has an MG, so they aren't completely helpless. But in my case all four pairs were stacked on top of each other, right in the corner AP.

But, shouldn't the ammo teams be with their weapons? You could perhaps do that and then add some scout teams for the corners, or a very low strength platoon split across both locations. Maybe?

[JonS]

oops. i'll change that to boxes?

Nah, they weren't going anywhere. Eventually they would all be planted on the bluff overlooking OMAHA Beach, but no one on the 6th June could have known that. Maybe talk about a telegram from the Sec Def to their mom. Wait, was there a Sec Def in 1944? Probably not. Whose name were the "regret to inform .." telegrams sent out over in the US?

Edit: Here's an example from 6 June:

[

http://www.jmlavelle.com/chapman/index.html

[Sublime]

the chronology of his movements in the war by his mom was really sad.

at the end - june 6 1944 normandy france - then to his death 2 hours later. good bye my dear soon, i hope we meet again. mother.

war is an awful thing - we all too often forget while we enjoy our games

[rocketman]

war is an awful thing - we all too often forget while we enjoy our games

Actually, that is one of the reasons why I "enjoy" games like CMBN, that when things go FUBAR and pixeltruppen fall left and right - it is a reminder, and a stark one too, that war is a dreadful thing. The more I play (immersed in battles), the more convinced I become - a pacifist that enjoy war games (is that a contradiction of terms?).

[chas_in_mlb]

The patrol mission (#3) is kinda ridiculous.

How is it scored? I just end up in a shooting match with the Germans in the field and behind the hedge. It never ends.

[Crushingleeek]

The patrol mission (#3) is kinda ridiculous.

How is it scored? I just end up in a shooting match with the Germans in the field and behind the hedge. It never ends.

try to avoid a shooting match, it's a scouting mission with very low acceptable casualty rate because reinforcements are continuously coming off the beach.

disengage before you get killed.

you get points for spotting enemies (not for killing them) but the enemy gets a lot of points for killing your troops

this sets up mission #4

[chas_in_mlb]

OK, but how do I tell my guys not to open up on them?

And if I use demo charges to create alternate routes will that not alert them to my presence?

I take back what I said. It's not ridiculous. All I could do was put men in the two buildings nearest the jump off point; enemy teams came at us and we had to kill a few. Enemy spotted=point 425. Tactical victory, which I assume isn't too bad.

[Fizou]

chas_in_mlb,

I have to disagree. I think the third scenario was great. I think scenarios 1-4 was really strong then the following missions was good but not as good as the starting four.

Great job by LLF and I hope to see more work from you.

[Fizou]

[quote=Fizou;1373575

Great job by LLF and I hope to see more work from you.

[JonS]

I agree with Chas. The set up here is potentially interesting, but there is practically no ability to scout because every potential route is covered from multiple angles. The only way to move across the map (and thus "scout" more than just the starting corner) is to engage and destroy a series of positions. So, I too just ended up loading all my guys into a couple of buildings, then button-mashing and waiting for the scenario to end while my guys plinked some HMG crews milling about in the open.

It's a bit better than a later scen, though, where your main force is stuck on a road between two green-walls, and the mortar crews (who aren't stuck in the tunnel) end up being your primary assault force ...

[Crushingleeek]

Valid thoughts/criticisms. I pondered this myself; I knew it was not going to be a "roam freely through the town and dominate commando style" type of scenario.

As is the case in the majority of the decisions I make when I have a choice between history and gameplay, I veered toward the historic story I understand. St. Laurent was held pretty resolutely by 352nd elements.

I tried to foreshadow and downplay any "gung-ho" player expectations by including that bit about "no heroes on this mission. heroes go home in body bags." which I learned is an anachronism.