Chris Ferrous Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 I suspect that along with many others, I feel the AI needs a 'helping hand' if it is to have any chance in a battle otherwise designed for HvH play. It seems that one of the tricks I thought I'd employed doesn't work; namely, allowing the AI to set-up slightly outside of the HvH set-up zones to give it a few metres head start. Likewise I've done the reverse to keep it or special units like HQs out of harm's way for a while. In a recent test of a fairly complex AI plan, I finally noticed that one group that had been given this head start had NOT in fact redeployed at all from the default positions. Worse, that group then did nothing until the next 'step' in the plan came into effect and that intended movement was thus from the incorrect location (to the correct target). My initial reaction was that the in-game AI actually had some ingenuity after all, but not as regards of what happened with this plan! So to all scenario designers, is my observation set in stone and the AI cannot be asked to deploy outside HvH set-up zones? Has anyone seen any other pitfalls in AI plans that they'd like to share? Has anyone finally got to grips with the various behaviours permitted during a move? Oh, one other thing I'm not yet sure of:- If a vehicle is directed to a position heading towards the enemy but a later timepoint asks it to withdraw does the vehicle always turn at its forward position ready to move to spot two, even if it's hours ahead, and thereby present its backside to the enemy? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 AIUI, the AI will set up in the overlap between the blue (or red, as appropriate) SUZ, and the AI SUZ you paint for that AI group in the AI editor. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ferrous Posted April 30, 2012 Author Share Posted April 30, 2012 Yes, the AI will set-up ONLY in areas that are compatible with BOTH the Human set-up zone AND its own set-up zone. Thanks for confirming this JonS 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanzfeld Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 A thought that has come to me about helping the AI is to give the AI about 100 TRP's and space them all over the map in a grid pattern to assist the AI in using its arty. A human can anticipate where to call for arty and the AI cannot. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen Von Television Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 As Jon pointed out, iirc the AI cannot cheat in deploying any unit out of the red/blue setup zones, so you actually need to paint those zone accordingly to your AI options, while it would be for the player to chose where in the SUZ position his units. Alternatively I've also tested AI deployment without any SUZ (after I deployed the units), and again no matter where you paint the AI setup zones, no unit will move from the Deploy Allied / Deploy Axis setup. Lanzfeld, what do you mean about giving the AI 100 TRPs? Are you talking about the painted Support Objectives in the AI Editor or the actual TRPs that a human player may move around? Can you please elaborate in detail your technique? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ferrous Posted April 30, 2012 Author Share Posted April 30, 2012 I don't think zillions of TRPs are necessary for the AI to use its mortars etc. successfully, providing the map isn't chequer board flat. Even minor rises of 4-5 metres are sufficient to get an OP that can see over even dense Bocage. In all my scenarios (I've not released any yet) the AI has used its mortars very well and switched targets rapidly. The one thing I do do however, is to bring in the AI's arty assets over time so it doesn't expend it all at once. It seems to use short sharp strikes of about 4-8 rounds in 1 minute. They're usually close if not bang on target and if they hit you can pretty well scratch at least one team. For what it's worth I think the painted target zones (support zones) are too restrictive for the AI unless it is intended to represent an opening barrage or FPF. Anyone got an answer to the direction vehicles point question? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen Von Television Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 I believe that about the unit facing for the AI should be set by the direction of the next order, so in the case you propose there are good chances that the tank would turn exposing its weaker points, unless the TacAI can handle it. Actually I also thought there should be some Reverse movement order for the AI, or something similar, to prevent the AI doing some silly moves... As for the TRPs I agree that the preset support zones may be deadly and are restricted to the first turns. Still I have a scenario with very well positioned observers that can really smash some good strikes, but they are not always working as they should: for example it seems that just one of them out of four is really active during the battle, while the others do nothing; in this instance I have about eight heavy mortars available to the observers, but seldom all are assigned a firing mission, maybe just a couple of them... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgie Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 I have had the best luck in setting up a good AI defense by choosing a good defensive position for the various units and leaving them there. I believe that that is the most effective defense given the size of our battles. Even using the largest maps that we have it is too haphazard to try to move a defensive element for fear of it either being spotted or moving to a worse or no better position. There is simply no method at out disposal to implement a mobile or even a shifting defense. Given the communications in use during WW2 its hard for me to believe that units in a small battle, as a regular tactic, shifted their carefully selected or hard won defensive positions unless it was for a counter attack which we are not doing by simply moving them to a different location. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ferrous Posted April 30, 2012 Author Share Posted April 30, 2012 Hi Gen v TV Certainly that was my experience with CM1; FOs just didn't use up their assets all that well, and sometimes not at all. I've not checked who/what is doing the spotting in the scenario I am particularly thinking about (about 900m^2), but the mortar strikes come thick and fast and all over the map. There are about 3 really good OP positions and the AI is offered them at set-up, then there's about another 5-6 more that cover significant channels. I'm convinced that a single location isn't targetting all this stuff! I've never really gone for particularly flat maps, not jagged, but certainly not flat, and so maybe that's why the AI FOs get to do their job. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ferrous Posted April 30, 2012 Author Share Posted April 30, 2012 @ Georgie True, there's nothing wrong with a well contrived and pre-set AI defence. After all, you can still play with things like the ambush radii over an estimated time course, and although I've never managed it, it should be possible to ambush at least the lead elements of a human led attack. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 As Jon pointed out, iirc the AI cannot cheat in deploying any unit out of the red/blue setup zones, so you actually need to paint those zone accordingly to your AI options, while it would be for the player to chose where in the SUZ position his units. I think you can create several distinct user setup zones, which have specific portions of the human's TO assigned to them, so in a scenario you could allow the AI to deploy in areas outside what a human player could use, by creating extra setup zones and not assigning any human forces to those zones. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ferrous Posted April 30, 2012 Author Share Posted April 30, 2012 Thanks, Womble, good point, but with only three zones to play with it doesn't leave much wiggle room. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen Von Television Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 That is a nice trick Wombie, but as wrote above since we have three setup zones for each side sacrificing one just for the AI may be not a viable choice. I vote for having less restrictions on the setup AI zones: let them be free of the constrictions of red/blue zones that after all should be significant only for the humans... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ferrous Posted April 30, 2012 Author Share Posted April 30, 2012 Yes, I had hoped, and initially believed, the AI set-up would be free of such restrictions unless set to default, but sadly it has to compete on a level playing field. How many wargames do that! I've just run a check on vehicle facing and it does seem that once they reach an objective (step) they do orientate to anticipate the next step however far ahead in time that may be. It's not 100% of the time but at a rough guess 80% of the time, otherwise they face a perceived (known by them) threat, or about 20% of the time stay in the attitude they arrived at their objective. That's got me a bit scuppered because I wanted to be able to cause the AI to withdraw some armour after a 'shock' advance, so it could do it all over again later. Unfortunately, if they don't see anything they'll turn their tails ready to withdraw, and when the enemy (human) sees them they'll get a wicked first shot. Anyone know what happens if I set a further objective way ahead but say just 30secs before the withdrawal order. Will that mean after 30secs they'll give up on the distant forward objective and withdraw? Or will they doggedly try to go forward, even though 'out of time', and only then execute their withdrawl order? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostRider3/3 Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 I myself usually give the AI about 3 Plans to work from, each one having 2-4 options. It makes for some superb battles. I think the more planning you give the AI with different options the more likely it is to have challanging battles. I think a great scenerio builder, will include many different plans with different options of advance, covering forces etc. Flanking tactics instead of direct assualts worked in the AI plans are always challanging depending on how the AI plans are built. Without plotting different AI plans and several options for each plan is just suicidal for the AI.... unless you like easy non challanging wins. I find this game extremely exciting and have suprised myself on how the AI can execute a well established AI plan with several options... that also makes replayability excellent. Not to sidetrack the thread but can anyone tell me how we can delete some of the units in the editor but not delete them from the unit screen? I beleive there was a revive button, strange that I was trying to set up forces more easily by deleting some until I was ready to deploy them by deleting them.. to revive them later for deployment. thanks Juergen 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick3593 Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 So to all scenario designers, is my observation set in stone and the AI cannot be asked to deploy outside HvH set-up zones? Has anyone seen any other pitfalls in AI plans that they'd like to share? Has anyone finally got to grips with the various behaviours permitted during a move 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen Von Television Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Is not that simple: actually you can position an AI unit outside the SUZ by using the Deploy function in the Editor, but then the player wouldn't be able to move that unit in the setup phase, and the AI will ignore any setup painted area for that unit, though all the other orders would be acted upon... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 I wanted to be able to cause the AI to withdraw some armour after a 'shock' advance, so it could do it all over again later. Unfortunately, if they don't see anything they'll turn their tails ready to withdraw, and when the enemy (human) sees them they'll get a wicked first shot. Anyone know what happens if I set a further objective way ahead but say just 30secs before the withdrawal order. Will that mean after 30secs they'll give up on the distant forward objective and withdraw? Or will they doggedly try to go forward, even though 'out of time', and only then execute their withdrawl order? That is indeed the traditional solution to this situation; set a waypoint /just/ ahead of their holding position open for a very short window of time, then the objective position further to the rear where you actually want them to go. They will move forward to the temporary waypoint then - if your timing is good - immediately hightail it back to the location you actually want them to go to. Obviously(?) this is only necessary for vehciles, since although strictly it affects infantry too, they're pretty good at re-orienting themselves with only slight risk. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen Von Television Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 how we can delete some of the units in the editor but not delete them from the unit screen? I beleive there was a revive button, strange that I was trying to set up forces more easily by deleting some until I was ready to deploy them by deleting them.. to revive them later for deployment. This is still somewhat unclear to me too: if you delete some low hierarchy unit from the OB usually it will become ghosted so that you can revive it later on, but some time it just disappear from the list. On the contrary some HQ squads will never be ghosted and you have to keep them on the map: i.e. I wasn't able to delete a Battalion HQ when I just needed a few platoons, or just one Company from that battalion.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 On the contrary some HQ squads will never be ghosted and you have to keep them on the map: i.e. I wasn't able to delete a Battalion HQ when I just needed a few platoons, or just one Company from that battalion. Often I do that deliberately to maintain C2 links all the way up the food chain. The HQs - and other undeleteable units - that I don't want to appear in play I park in an out of the way corner, and assign to Reinforcement Slot #7 with an arrival time of 3hrs + 30mins. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ferrous Posted May 1, 2012 Author Share Posted May 1, 2012 All good stuff. Now to the 'don't let the AI surrender on me just when it gets interesting' problem:- Back with CM1 the solution was to have some reinforcements in the AI's OOB which never arrived as they were scheduled after the battle was over. Thanks for reminding me of this JonS! I suppose the same thing works for CMBN? Only problem is we have such limited slots I'll have to free one up to do this. Anyone got any idea what sort of proportion of 'additional invisible reserve' is necessary? Nick thanks for bumping my earlier queries back on topic. I think we've answered the set-up zones thing though. I'm particularly interested in how the AI reacts to the different behaviours during a move if anyone has any observations on this issue. My experience was that I didn't seem to see any difference between a cautious assault and a normal assault. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostRider3/3 Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 This is still somewhat unclear to me too: if you delete some low hierarchy unit from the OB usually it will become ghosted so that you can revive it later on, but some time it just disappear from the list. On the contrary some HQ squads will never be ghosted and you have to keep them on the map: i.e. I wasn't able to delete a Battalion HQ when I just needed a few platoons, or just one Company from that battalion.... Yeah strange thing is I just was editing a scenerio I am working on.. Could not ghost out any German Units.. I wonder if this is true because I "renamed" them? I went and started loading British... and like you said, If I delete the Core HQ unit.. its gone, but I could delete the subordinate units and it would then be ghosted to be revived later.. this is how I set up large battles.. ghosting out what I dont need so I can set up the forces easier and plot their courses according to the plans I want them to take. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen Von Television Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 I have a whole Core Units battle all renamed to their historical commanders, and I can surely ghost them without a problem... But the main problem for me is to get the logic of the units disappearing when deleted, and I'm not talking just about the HQs that I can understand, but to me it's still perfectible: if in a Company I need just a couple of platoons with their CO, why should I keep the Co HQ or even worst the Battalion HQ? The oddity is that in some cases I can get those units ghosted, while in other instances the whole Co/Bt vanish and this happens also when I single out to delete subordinate platoons or squads: they do not stay ghosted, but just disappear... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ferrous Posted May 1, 2012 Author Share Posted May 1, 2012 Yes, ghosting / deleting got me for a while too. As far as I can tell, you CAN delete upper HQs providing you delete, shall we say, upwards? So, if you delete a lower echelon then you can usually delete a higher one, including the Battn HQ etc, but something beneath must go - I believe that to be the case anyway! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 As far as I can tell, you CAN delete upper HQs providing you delete, shall we say, upwards? I'm pretty sure this is correct. The rule of thumb I use is that the game forces you to maintain an upper level HQ that ties together elements from each purchase unit. Ech. That's confusing. So, examples! 1) You have a battalion, and have deleted everything except a single platoon in one of the rifle companys. The Company HQ and Bn HQ can be deleted. 2) You have a battalion, and have deleted everything except two platoons in one of the rifle companys. Bn HQ can be deleted, but that Company HQ must be retains to 'tie' the two platoons together. 3) You have a battalion, and have deleted everything except one platoon from each of two rifle companys (i.e., one platoon in A Company, and one platoon in B Company). The Bn HQ cannot be deleted, and neitehr can the two Company HQs. They must all be retained to 'tie' the two platoons together. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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