Rokko Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Been testing a little out of pure boredom how effective the American bazooka is against German tanks from the flanks. It seems after a few runs (10 maybe per tank, only tested the M1A1) that the armor skirts on the Pz IV have absolutely no effect while the ones on the Panther work as one would expect. If a bazooka round hits a Panther's armor skirts (visually) it says "Hit: Armor skirt" and no Penetration usually. On a PzIV though, of which the flank is almost totally protected by armor skirts (sometimes it is absent, but thats not common), it rarely says "Hit: Armor skirt", it almost always seems to hit the armor behind it (and often penetrates it). To me that seems wrong. Unless someone tells me the PzIV skirts were somehow much thinner than the Panther skirts (I thought both are about 5mm thick) and could be penetrated by a Bazooka rocket without setting it off I might concede, but I used to think that armor skirts were actually pretty effective in defeating HEAT weapons like the Bazooka... Edit: Also, often the tank's behaviour was very suicidal, i.e. when they survived the first hit they often exposed their rear and tried speeding off, which usually didn't work. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Hmmm, interesting observation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siffo998 Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 actually i experienced the opposite. in a recent pbem scenario my opponent attacks with a huge number of panzer IV H with armor skirts. some of my units have bazookas m1a9. all the bazooka hits against the panzer IVs sides (around 6 hits) caused no penetration at all. it only says "armor skirts" hit but theirs no penetration or partial penetration or armor spalling. after the hits the panzer IV crew normally spots my bazooka team and kills it. so i think the panzer IV armor skirts are very effective against bazooka fire. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rokko Posted March 4, 2012 Author Share Posted March 4, 2012 It also seems it strongly depends on the angle, I tested 90° angles exclusively. I assume in your case the bazookas were fired from 45° angles or so, is that right? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siffo998 Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 It also seems it strongly depends on the angle, I tested 90° angles exclusively. I assume in your case the bazookas were fired from 45° angles or so, is that right? dont know which angle exactly for each round but i am pretty sure that most, if not all, cases were more or less than 90° hits. 90° hits are pretty rare in combat situations. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wokelly Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 It is a bit of a myth that the side skirts on the Mark IV provided protection from HEAT rounds. This is due to the use of slat skirts on modern AFVs to protect them from HEAT rounds (mainly the RPG). Modern "spaced armour" doesn't actually work on the principle of stand off range, rather the collection of "ribs" deform the head of the HEAT round and prevent the formulation of a molten jet. The German side skirts were stand off armour meant to stop Russian ATR rounds, but they are not "ribbed" like modern slat armour and do not actually provide much protection from HEAT rounds. The stand off range needed to resist HEAT rounds is pretty big, around a meter until the jet has totally petered out on certain types. The German side skits had an effect but not enough to prevent a jet capable of going through 3cm side armour from hitting it. I think the Germans knew this, as the Panther and later Jagdpanzers did not have side skirts, in part because their side armour was strong enough to stop ATRs and because the skirts did not provide much if any protection. Incidentally this is why the sandbag protection on the Sherman's had no effect either 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 The phrase 'bazooka plates' came from contemporary western intelligence, who were unaware of the Russian front anti-tank rifle threat. From there perspective that was the only reason they could think of for surrounding a tank with metal sheet skirts. They also thought zimmerit was applied for camouflage purposes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rokko Posted March 4, 2012 Author Share Posted March 4, 2012 Well originally they were meant to stop ATR rounds, but why did the Germans put Thoma skirts on the very late Pzkpfw IV Ausf. J? http://panzerivtheworkhorse.devhub.com/blog/562020-thoma-schilde/ Obviously those wouldn't be able to stop ATR rounds anymore. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Plate schurzen didn't stop ATR rounds, either; it destabilized them. Mesh had the same effect. However, the Thoma shield style of mesh would be effective against A/T rifles and also HEAT rounds. The size of the mesh will not allow the round to pass through it unscathed and all that’s required is to upset its flight which the mesh will do quite nicely. What are they basing the claim that the Thoma skirts would be effective against HEAT on? Second sentence is about the effect on ATR rounds. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Obviously those wouldn't be able to stop ATR rounds anymore. It wasn't necessary to stop them. It was only necessary to make them tumble. The penetration of ATR rounds at this stage of the war was pretty marginal to begin with, and any interference with its ballistics was enough to keep it from penetrating. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 What are they basing the claim that the Thoma skirts would be effective against HEAT on? They may be supposing that they do provide enough standoff that the HEAT rounds of this era would not be effective. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wokelly Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Well originally they were meant to stop ATR rounds, but why did the Germans put Thoma skirts on the very late Pzkpfw IV Ausf. J? http://panzerivtheworkhorse.devhub.com/blog/562020-thoma-schilde/ Obviously those wouldn't be able to stop ATR rounds anymore. I honestly have no idea if the Thoma Schilde skirts would have been any better at stopping HEAT. All I know for certain is the steel side plates were of marginal use. I have seen someone do the calculations and theoretically the side skirts provided protection if the round hit at a pretty bad angle. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 The late mesh skirts were also meant to stop anti-tank rifle rounds. Really, all they had to do was slightly deflect the bullet trajectory and it ends up impacting the hull sideways instead of head-on. I think the only tank with genuine 'armor' skirts was the King Tiger, everything else was soft metal... I think. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rokko Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 Ok, I've done some reading and it seems the German's themselves have found out the skirts were ineffective against shaped charges. I guess I just couldn't imagine how mesh wire skirts could be meant to defeat anything else but a HEAT rocket or why the Russians would put improvised mesh cover on some of their tanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wokelly Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Ok, I've done some reading and it seems the German's themselves have found out the skirts were ineffective against shaped charges. I guess I just couldn't imagine how mesh wire skirts could be meant to defeat anything else but a HEAT rocket or why the Russians would put improvised mesh cover on some of their tanks. Can you cite what you read? Personally when I tell people this I only have an example I saw someone do on the WWIIOL forum which was pretty well cited but you can not access those without a password. Would love to have something to cite in the future if it is in a book or something. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Ok, I've done some reading and it seems the German's themselves have found out the skirts were ineffective against shaped charges. I guess I just couldn't imagine how mesh wire skirts could be meant to defeat anything else but a HEAT rocket or why the Russians would put improvised mesh cover on some of their tanks. As to why the Russians put bedsprings on tanks: Why do people carry rabbits foots or bibles into combat? Why do crew men stick tank track or wheels on marginal armour. Why did NZ recon troops camo paint their rifles (because black and green styer's are just too high contrast . . . ). It all makes them feel better, it does not mean it's actually effective. NZ infantry preference for not wearing helmets in the tropics does not equate to NZ soldiers being more survivable when confronted with shrapnel any more than WW 1 Russian troops with their hats verses German artillery. Your confusing human and sometimes emotional choices verses the actual reality of the situation. Germans designed against Russian ATR rounds, the found that toma's mesh were just as effective verses ATR rounds and used less resources = new shurzen production model. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 *waves* Hi Bas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Hi Mate just excited at work over downloading the CW units. Forums still the same 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 plus ca change, or somefink 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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