thejetset Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 I'm not sure if I've found something that could use some code tweaking. Here is the situation: I had the entire crew of a 57mm AT gun become casualties during an artillery bombardment. However, the ATG commander and the ATG came through the ordeal OK. (luckily the commander was "crack" and did not abandon the gun!) He then proceeded to bravely swing the ATG into action and scored a hit on an advancing Panzer IV. However, he only got one shot off and would not re-load the gun. (A couple of bazooka teams finished the job on the PzIV). However, before the zook's could finish the job, the ATG had approximately 80 seconds of un-suppressed time to re-load and take another shot. (the PzIV had not managed to spot the ATG). But the ATG commander just sat "observing" ... at no time did "Load" or "Aim" info appear in his status ... even when I gave the gun a "direct-fire" order. Can a single man reload a relatively small caliber ATG?? Obviously the "Real Life" answer would be YES. I would even be OK with an extremely low ROF of maybe one shot per minute or so. My petition would be that if this is the case (where an ATG or Inf Gun is manned by only a single crew member, that they should still be able to re-load the gun). This could be modeled better. ----------------------------- Also, it would be cool if ATG's and Inf Guns could be "crewed" similar to the way that Jeeps, halftracks and Trucks are "crewed". This way, if some of the ATG crew gets killed, the ammo bearers could come up and lend a hand to the field piece. Some people may say that these people would not have enough training to operate this gun ... however, I think that is outweighed by the un-realistic factor that is described above ... What is the lesser of two evils?? ... 1) Having a perfectly operable gun that can't be used due to weird bureaucratic "rules" that say, "Ah ah ahhh! You are not certified to use that!" 2) Bringing serviceable equipment into play by pixletruppen who are willing to use whatever tools are available be-damned with the certifications and paperwork. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Check his ammo. Was there any ammo left? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejetset Posted March 1, 2012 Author Share Posted March 1, 2012 Ammo is good! About 20 rounds. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Cool story. But I think you're expecting an awful lot from this guncrew commander, crack or not. Maybe in real life one man *could* continue to reload the gun and shoot it all by himself, but after a traumatic combat like that and -- quite possibly slightly wounded himself -- I would expect him to count his blessings and get out of there. I don't think having that one guy continuing to load and fight would be modeling it "better" at all. It would make CMBN seem gamier and less realistic to me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejetset Posted March 1, 2012 Author Share Posted March 1, 2012 Hi Broadsword, I think you are correct in a fire-fight situation. And I think CM models this fairly well by having the troops "panic" and you loose control of them temporary. But in my scenario, situation has now been calm for several minutes. (Remember, he was not in a firefight ... it was a brief artillery barrage that stopped) I would think that the commander should be able to re-load in the mean time and prepare for another shot at some later point in the battle. (That would be my 1st tweak ... just let 1 crew member re-load at a much slower rate) ---But my ideal "tweak" would be to handle guns the same way the MG jeeps and half-tracks are handled. I would like for the ammo-bearers to be able to take the place of the lost gun-crew guys. In a half-track, if your MG gunner takes a hit, you can run more men into the half-track and re-man that gun. (same with the MG Jeeps). It would be very nice to be able to crew ATG's in this manner .... at the very least it would be nice to be able to re-crew with the Ammo Bearer teams. However, have other people had this experience ... that a one-man ATG just turns into a "Single-Shot" weapon?? ... Once you fire the round that is currently loaded ... that's it, Game Over, might as well abandon that weapon???? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 I take your point, jetset. If that sort of tweak makes CMBN a better game for you, then OK. But I wouldn't my CMBN to go that way. I have never been in combat or under an HE barrage -- thank heaven -- but everything I've read about WWII tells me that you'd never say to a GI whose ears are ringing, head is throbbing, and has just seen all his men killed, "Hey, what's your problem? Get moving -- it's been quiet for several minutes now!" I don't sweat whatever game details might be causing this situation, because in my view, any gun crew that's been through what you described has lost its cohesion and combat effectiveness and might as well be written off for the rest of the battle. A flesh-and-blood surviving soldier not only might not be OK to fight in a few minutes or hours -- but might never be able to lead troops again and would likely suffer the effects of this combat for the rest of his life. I know, it's just a game. But to me, part of the way I justify making my entertainment from other people's real-life horrors is by trying to show respect -- always remembering what the game is simulating and honoring what the real soldiers would have been doing and enduring. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejetset Posted March 1, 2012 Author Share Posted March 1, 2012 Hi Broadsword. Yeah, I also like the game to be as realistic as possible and I see the points you are stating above. For this reason, I never play with "crack" troops. There were actually VERY few crack troops assigned to this scenario. (Fredrocker Campaign) But this gun commander just happened to be a "crack" guy in this gun-crew. Normally, under such a barrage the survivors of the gun would have realistically abandoned the gun and headed off range. (Just as you described in your post above) But in this case, this commander held the line. I guess my only gripe is that IF (under unlikely circumstances) he managed to hold the line, rotate the gun and successfully fire the gun (scoring a hit) ... it seems a little "gamey" that he can't load another 57mm round into the breach. I just wanted to check to see if I should "abandon" this gun because the CM code is written in a way that says, "one man gun-crews cannot reload a gun under any circumstances" ....... and ..... I was hoping to float a balloon to see what people thought about the idea of Ammo Bearers being able to crew a gun they are holding ammo for. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigop22 Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I'm not sure what kind of training the ATG ammo bearer would have had. I imagine the guys chosen for this task might have been either just random selection from the service ranks for mule work. The same as guys who carry mortar ammo. Again my knowledge could be off. But I imagine anyone trained to operate and fire the ATG would already be manning one. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJFHutch Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Two things came to mind when reading this: 1. Although quite true that it would be a little unreasonable to expect a single man to continue fighting after his team was just killed, he was "crack" and technically he was still very much in the fight in the game anyway. If it's unreasonable for him to be firing the gun it should be even more unreasonable for him to be still functioning on the battlefield as well. 2. If there is still a man trained to operate the gun remaining he could theoretically orchestrate an untrained crew to use the gun - at a much lower efficiency of course. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Cool story. But I think you're expecting an awful lot from this guncrew commander, crack or not. Maybe in real life one man *could* continue to reload the gun and shoot it all by himself, but after a traumatic combat like that and -- quite possibly slightly wounded himself -- I would expect him to count his blessings and get out of there. I don't think having that one guy continuing to load and fight would be modeling it "better" at all. It would make CMBN seem gamier and less realistic to me. Depends on a lot of variables. There's at least one man who won the MoH in Vietnam for continuing to load and fire a crew-served weapon (a 105, IIRC, depressed and firing flechette) after the rest of the crew had been killed. Extreme, but it happens. This is one of those "anecdotes aren't data" situations though. Just because it happens once, whether in real life / CM, doesn't mean the game is right or wrong. Or "gamey" for that matter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger33 Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I ran into a similar situation in CMSF at least once with a two man ATGM team. The "Antitank" guy went down, and apparently the team leader had no idea how the ATGM worked, because he just sat there with 3 missiles and watched US tanks roll across the plains for 30 minutes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Waaaaaaayyy back when CMBN was still only a couple months old I did an AAR of a battle in Bois de Baugin with Broadsword. In that fight I had a 50mm AT gun that was eventually manned by only the team commander and he wasn't crack. He fired until he was out of ammo completely and I finally had him abandon the gun. This guy was under fire from mortars, Shermans etc. Not sure if you recall Broadsword, but that was the gun holding the center by the paddock. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
black_prince Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I lost a Panther to a 57mm gun in the of Panzer Marche campaign manned by a single crewman. I was certain the crew had been wiped out by my 120mm mortars and the Panther has its turret turned in the opposite direction to engange some infantrymen in a stream bed. Then suddenly-BANG! Right in the back of the turret, next to the escape hatch followed by another one in the flank. Serves me right for underestimating the tenacity of the American GI. Personally, I have no problem with this situation occuring in the right circumstances, i.e. the crew are sufficiuently well motivated. There are a few examples of lone gunners valiantly fighting their gun in the teeth of horrendous fire. One that springs to mind is Sgt Labalaba firing a 25 pounder repeatedly point blank at the battle of Mirbat, even after being wounded in the face. Also, IIRC, a similar incident took place at the Battle of Bir Hakeim with a lone FFL gunner manning his 75mm gun to the last, even as he recieved terrible wounds and his commrades were falling all arround him. These may have been exceptional incidents but I think there is room for exceptional instances in CMBN and that the game is a lot richer for them 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Waaaaaaayyy back when CMBN was still only a couple months old I did an AAR of a battle in Bois de Baugin with Broadsword. In that fight I had a 50mm AT gun that was eventually manned by only the team commander and he wasn't crack. He fired until he was out of ammo completely and I finally had him abandon the gun. This guy was under fire from mortars, Shermans etc. Not sure if you recall Broadsword, but that was the gun holding the center by the paddock. How could I forget? I recall practically expending all my mortar ammo, sacrificing 2 or 3 Sherman's, and at least one HMG to that one gun. But The gun was so perfectly placed that I had no way to advance on my objectives until I could destroy it. I could hear the rounds rattling continuously against the gun shield, and that German just seemed to duck down and laugh it off. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejetset Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 These may have been exceptional incidents but I think there is room for exceptional instances in CMBN and that the game is a lot richer for them Hey everyone. Thanks for the input. I agree that this is exceptional and also agree that it is very cool that CMBN allows for exceptional events! ... I'll keep my guy on the gun and hope for the best that he can get it together enough to reload the thing. (could be a silver star candidate!) Therefore, if my opponent happens to be reading this forum: Beware! I may ... or may not ... have an ATG zeroed in on your remaining tanks if you cross into this area!!!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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