Close Combat wishes in here?

[Knaust]

OK guys....can anyone of you tell me what si freedom?

[Spy_Eye]

Everyone tell me wich other games are good up there. And i am asking for game already released.

Tell me about the games your playing on WW2 basis.I really would like to know other good games. To buy them. Dont tell me about games you dont like. Your juts making more pub about them. If you are pissed off about Close Combat dont tell me or make post here. Cause i think they dont sell it in here...

So my english is poor. yes it is. Now i should ask if they will make other international version. Cause here we have law that they have to sell a product with the 2 versions French and English. So if they dont want to have complaints and have it stop at the border, they should sell it in french too.

Realisticly is adjective to tend toward reality. But it never acvhieve it, thats the point i am trying to tell. So no game can be real. NO GAME. But they tend to be. They try. Some are doing better then others. Atomic maybe didnt went enough far in your views. The demo was out there to try it. You dont like it, dont buy it to complain after. thats why i am asking for other games name to have a better choice. Choice is freedom. You dont have choice, you dont have freedom to buy a realistlcy ww2 games, stop playing ww2 games, or wait.

I seen here a lot of angry and bitter people. Fionn is one them. Personnaly i dont like the film critics like the game ones. especially if they have conflict with in.

Sorry if i have to respond on the same tone as him. Since he think he is the only one with a good opinion in here. And he is telling it himself. WOW a self judgentmental critic ""reviewer"". My question in the post was to ask why are you talking about an other game in here. It looking not very businnes like. I never heard about other games in bad in cc forums. And some poeple even went as far as making review on it.

We play only ww2 games here. its just fun, we dont need to go personal or try to tell we have better opinions then others. I never did, i try to hear them. But the bitter things some are saying, make us divert from real discussions.

BLACKHORSE_C16 was on point about realims. We cant make a perfect real ww2 game. and you forgot BLACKHORSE_C16 thats some europeen bridges could not have taken the weight of these armor monsters. some tank drivers need to have signalers to drive across small bridge. And also i dont have to tell you that even new armor suspensions can break arms and jaws. Imagine ww2 ones...

[Xyphorus]

SS_PanzerLeader.

I think that when one uses a spread sheet in a foreign language, the spell check options are only avaible for the language curently used. In the case of Spy_Eye,it must be French. His e-mail address was only a click of a button away, in the top left corner of his post.

I totally disagree with you when you state that when somebody does not master English, s/he should not even bother posting. I do not know you, and in any case am I judging you. But, experiences in living in many different countries taught me that it is alway worth trying to get a point accross. One is free to do so, and if the outcome is messy, then most likely people will not respond to it. That is that simple.

Howardb,

You are right about the fact that adding historical docs and materials to a historical wargame is a plus. This certainly was the case with CC2. I personaly noticed that difference with CC3 right away when I purchased the game. No historical info provided, except a couple of short videos.

I just do not think that the game manufacturer has a "responsability" to do so.

It just seems common sense to do it, and it certainly adds some value to the game.

Fionn,

I could not agree more with you. Attitudes are much more important than linguistic skills. That is what I love about the internet, boundaries are no more. People fell free to communicate, and language barriers should certainly not prevent anyone to express him/herself.

I have to admit that I did not find Spy_Eye's behavior "poor" in his posts. he clearly was off when he expressed his take about CC's tank pathfinding flaws. I even don't think that this CC's problem can be called anything else than a major flaw in the game.

As Moon mentionned, Spy_Eye took a lot of heat and critisisms in response to his posts.

He stayed calm and did not get nasty. That had to be underlined. Nevertheless, I know what you are referring to when talking about "abusive posters'. I agree with you, and share the same feeling on that matter.

Thank you,

Karl

PS; Fionn, do not worry, hyphenations in English are also for me a source of trouble

[howardb]

Don't worry Spy_eye I'm not angry or bitter on you. I don't find your behaviour at all abusive. The thing is you asked us what we thought of the game and when we gave you our answer politely I think you got a little mad

Now weather Fionn is a reviewer or not I don't care about that doesnt go far in my book but he does know a lot about CM and WWII in general and that does in this forum. Let me point out that your opinions are worth just as much as any others here as long as you got something interesting to say

Xyphorus: I said "should feel a responsibility" not has... see the difference

[BLACKHORSE_C16]

Anyone want to hear another Blackhorse story on language barriers. I have a good one from International Long Range Reconnaisance Patrol School. You should always try to communicate. Besides perfection is overrated.

------------------

Allons!!

[Fionn]

Spy-Eye,

Ah, the old "let's call people who disagree with you names" tactic. Way to have a rational discussion .

As for the CC forums. I've seen lots of discussions comparing CC to other games on those forums. You mustn't be visiting many of those forums. A part of ANY review and game evaluation is to evaluate how it compares to other games.

The ESSENCE of reviewing a game is to place it comparatively with respect to other games in its genre. If you don't know that already I'm not about to try to convince you cause I doubt it'd do any good BUT it is a fact. Ask any reviewer who knows what he or she is doing and they'll agree.

Ps. AGAIN I say that simply cause I disagree with you doesn't mean its personal. Of course I can do nothing if you WANT to take it personally but then that's part of your agenda and is quite detached from reality.

Karl,

I was refering to Spy-Eye's willingness to make abusive comments about those who disagreed with him on this thread and others. At the point I wrote that i was referring to his conduct on another thread but now he's managed to take it here too IMO.

There are some people who simply can't accept that they can be disagreed with in good humour. They turn around and end up calling others names simply for disagreeing with them. I think such behaviour is "poor".

I guess it all comes down to thinking that the freedom to post comes with a responsibility to post maturely and constructively AND be willing to accept that other's opinions differ.

------------------

___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[SS_PanzerLeader]

Xyphorus

I did not realize about the email thing I apologize, I've never used it so I didn't know I could do that. Also I never said he couldn't post if he hadn't mastered the English language, I said that I wouldn’t have posted, also I merely pointed out that he opened a can of worms that he didn’t really want to hear the answer to. When the responses were posted he began to get rattled and his posts got worse. AS far as the spellchecker goes like I said earlier - I'm not familiar with it.

FIONN

I have no problem telling someone their post is quite understandable as a means of explaining why they mightn't be getting an answer to it but I think everyone should realize that posting in a language you don't know very well requires that you be given a lot of leeway.

If this leeway isn't given to Spy_Eye (whose behavior in this thread I think has been very poor) then others who aren't good with English won't post here.

You are entirely right here; I just want all to know that I was not trying to discourage anyone who doesn't speak English well from posting here. I Wish I would never had put the spelling comment, but I did and its done, yet not for the reasons that I think some may be thinking. I honestly didn’t feel like he had looked the stuff over that’s all. I’m terrible about making spelling mistakes because I type fast but when I post I try to look them over.

TO ALL

If anyone things I was outta line I never meant to offend-anyone I just love a good scrap, so I don’t back down and I'm pretty straight forward :-P, and If I see that I'm wrong about something I'm man enough to apologize - which I have previously done where I felt were needed.

SS_PanzerLeader......out

[Spy_Eye]

Sorry Fionn,

i dont know what your talking about. If you think that when expressing my views i have been againts you in anyway, just remind me.

My orignal post was to know why poeple was taling about CC in here. I heard many views, and sadly many bitter comments on me and my french language. I am very disapointed to hear poeple trying to put down people because they think that they are the better source of information. Then i ask to the kind ones, to tell me names of nice WW2 games. I had one response, the others were still trying to put everybody down. I think we should let the war in the games. Friendly post in the forum. If you want to discredit again Fionn, thats your time. You make nothing constructive doing so.

So again, what game out there already released worth bying? Until CM get ready.

Thanx to the kind ones.

[SS_PanzerLeader]

SPY_EYE

That was our point there isn't anything worth buying -that is why there was so much dissapointment over CC3 and 4. Save your money until this comes out if you want a good WW2 game. As far as anyone putting down your language or country, I haven't seen that any where - and by the way your last post was very legible thank you.

SS_PanzerLeader....out

[Guest Captain Foobar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If you support inferior products I take it you have a Yugo in the driveway or maybe a ford pinto. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now wait just a minute SSpanzerleader, I think that you've crossed the line! I happen to have owned a Ford Pinto, and it is NOT an inferior vehicle, when compared with other cars of the same price. Oh, umm except for all the design flaws and stuff. OK, so they suck, but I couldn't afford anything better! hehe.

[This message has been edited by Captain Foobar (edited 11-28-99).]

[MarkEzra]

Administrator:

This has become a pointless thread. How about closing it out?

[Iguana]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>So again, what game out there already released worth bying? Until CM get ready.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

SPY_EYE,

Here are a few (of course, this is just my opinion):

(1) 101st, the Airborne Invasion of Normandy. Excellent squad level combat game. You control individual soldiers. Turn based. Plays somewhat like the combat in X-Com.

(2) Panzer General 2. The grognards will say it's a beer and pretzels game, but darn it, it's fun. Excellent gameplay. May not be the final word in realism, but hard to quit playing once you start.

(3) East Front. Just got started on this one. Seems like an excellent tactical WW2 game. Initially got bad reviews, but many of the problems were (supposedly) fixed by patches, so be sure to get the latest patch. Other games in the series include West Front and East Front 2. I haven't bought these yet.

(4) Close Combat 1 and 2. Hey, I like 'em...but not half as much as I like Combat Mission.

All the above mentioned games are still available for sale new.

-Doug

[SS_PanzerLeader]

TOUCHE'

I Guess alot of grumbling on the internet(Had the internet been such a medium) may have saved a few people from purchasing that car that explodes on rear impact :-P

SS_PanzerLeader.............out

[Xyphorus]

I would second Iguana on this one:

* 101st Airborne is a game worth buying in my opinion. I read an excellent review of it by Fionn, and for sure does not regret buying that game. I just wish there would be more online players for it outhere (Hint).

* West Front is all right, with the patch.

The campains are particularly fun playing.

* I had fun playing East Front, but I have to admit that the AI is very weak IMHO. Both East and West front are turned based games.

* CC2 is great playing. But I think Spy Eye knows that already

* And most importantly, CM got me all exited. I just can't wait to play it. The demo has been freezing on my system, but I hope the full version of the game will be all right. I still managed to play one full scenario, and just loved it. Otherwise, I may have to buy a new machine, just for CM I am far from being an expert about wargames, but CM really seems to be an amazing WWII game.

Thank you for reading,

Karl

[PanzerLeader]

Personally my favorite ones are:

- Operational Art Of War. I especially like the big scenarios that almost let you control the entire war or an entire theater of war.

- Western Front and Eastern Front 2. Can't compare them to CM because the scale is much bigger.(try to recreate corps or division level battles real time...)

- Combat Mission. Enough praise for it on this forum already

- Grand Theft Au...Ouuups!! I'd better shut up

[Spy_Eye]

Thank.

It will give me other games to try. of course until CM will be out.

And what about the best car around?

Some sugestion?

Some Ford were really good for Assault demolotion attacks. Explode om impacts with other vehicles. Better then the mine dogs i guess.

[howardb]

I would also like a game that simulates Gröfas (the great corporal), when he takes a big sweep at a map "and take out this part of the front and attack here, here and here" while his generals looks in bedazzlement at him, "and the cowards in Stalingrad should wait until we relieve them".I wouldn't be on my own tho, no sir. I would have excellent advisors like Göring to name one.

Maybe I'd start the medium and heavy Tanks production a year and a half earlier. Put the ME262 at least a year earlier in operational status etc. That would be cool.

Anyone remember Storm Across Europe? That game so cool, I use to play it for ages. I remember playing a friend once. If you took out two VC points and paris all the men in france got POW's. He that slimy bastard went across the border with the entire BEF so I had to slaughter them all LOL, took me much more time.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Mark, of course this happens when we are away

OK folks. This thread has gone on long enough. For one thing it is over the safety size for a single thread, so it needs to be closed no matter what.

Spy_Eye, your point is not an invalid one to some extent. You say that CC is a fun game, and therefore shouldn't be trashed. I agree, except for one major problem: their marketing claim says it is realistic. Your argument about realism being relative is also correct. However, there comes a time when something is so far off the mark that it no longer can make a serious claim to realism. Close Combat 4 appears to have crossed that line, while Close Combat 3 teetered on it.

A term like a "cold day" is relative. To me this is about -20 degrees F, but to someone in the Southern US it is probably +32 degrees F. While I can say for sure that my day is more "cold" than the other, I would say both are indeed "cold". However, if someone defines a "cold day" is 60 degrees F I have to shake my head. In the entire spectrum of temps, it can not be thought of as "cold" by any reasonable person. You can call 60 deg F "cold" compared to 90 deg F, but then how would you classify -20 deg F compared to 90 deg F? "Extra, super cold"? Because -20, 60 and 90 are all in the same temp scale, they CAN be compared against each other when the terms are the SAME. So it all comes down to relative terms. CC might be a more "realistic" wargame than Red Alert, but I still do not consider CC4 worthy of the title "realistic wargame". The errors are too obvious and too deliberate to be ignored. If CC4 removed the claim of realism, there would be no problem...

We have *no* argument against a developer who wishes to cater to Joe Average gamer, but DO have a beef when it is done with a healthy dose of false advertising. Why? Because some of these Joe Average gamers then play Combat Mission and complain that *we* are not "realistic" because Close Combat does things differently (and very incorrectly!). Now we have to devote time defending what is correct because some other developer has mislead them into thinking that magic rocket tanks did in fact exist in WWII, etc.

Steve