Spy_Eye

The main problem with ethic is ; who is the judge of the ethics. Sure for file hackings thats more then ethics matter, thats CHEATING. But who can judge for others. Tactics can be very specials. In an exemple if you have to guard a bridge at all cost to protects an open flank, who wont use every resources in his power to guard it. Even FO can be involved to save the situation. And in some situations the crews were very in good uses. Like in stalingrad they knew they wont have any other tanks to use. So why not using them to fight to save the day. its a matter of choices. Cheating list is more important. To be aware of those. But i think that ethics is like war.... You do what you have to do. If its shooting prisoners or let your FO fight along. Like someone can say that sending a HT on a bridge to block it is not ethic. Even if it means an HT sacrice. But for others it means simply slowing the ennemy. Ethics is the burden of the commanding officers, some are very bad, some are very good. So let them be themself, if you dont like their style, ask to be assign to a new regiment.(dont play this player again) Because imagine all the nightmare to the ones who will claim to have been played not ethicly. We will have just enough with "possible" cheaters accusations. [This message has been edited by Spy_Eye (edited 12-13-99).]

In semi hull down position the underbelly is the most weak spot and alway have the most perpendicular armor to the shots depending on the slop. Also any at shot touching ground in front of a tank will hit the front belly of it. Hull donwn competly is veru good , but half is worse then then no hull domw positon. Underbelly were very thin. Since almost any mine was HE and not AP. The under part of tanks like the tops were the most fragile of the tanks. If the game take no account on the underblly, what happends to ricochet rounds who it it? it counts as a frontal it? and does ricochets hits are modeled? Since tanks had AP traps on certain models. How the physics work? shot hit, then where, then what amor thikness, then blows or break ammo. Then rocochets? or shrapnel of the round break out? Also it was very risky for tanks to break suspension on wall climbing. Of course depending on the walls, some were very thin in france, not like england sctotish old farm walls. so under 12 inches thick no problems, but over 12, very risky. My Chrysler sure wont Like the old myths of tank going throught houses, they sure have to recon the house for basements. Cause basement are good tank traps. or nice place to have a party. "What we dont know wont hurt us" not in WW2

Thank. It will give me other games to try. of course until CM will be out. And what about the best car around? Some sugestion? Some Ford were really good for Assault demolotion attacks. Explode om impacts with other vehicles. Better then the mine dogs i guess.

Sorry Fionn, i dont know what your talking about. If you think that when expressing my views i have been againts you in anyway, just remind me. My orignal post was to know why poeple was taling about CC in here. I heard many views, and sadly many bitter comments on me and my french language. I am very disapointed to hear poeple trying to put down people because they think that they are the better source of information. Then i ask to the kind ones, to tell me names of nice WW2 games. I had one response, the others were still trying to put everybody down. I think we should let the war in the games. Friendly post in the forum. If you want to discredit again Fionn, thats your time. You make nothing constructive doing so. So again, what game out there already released worth bying? Until CM get ready. Thanx to the kind ones.

Everyone tell me wich other games are good up there. And i am asking for game already released. Tell me about the games your playing on WW2 basis.I really would like to know other good games. To buy them. Dont tell me about games you dont like. Your juts making more pub about them. If you are pissed off about Close Combat dont tell me or make post here. Cause i think they dont sell it in here... So my english is poor. yes it is. Now i should ask if they will make other international version. Cause here we have law that they have to sell a product with the 2 versions French and English. So if they dont want to have complaints and have it stop at the border, they should sell it in french too. Realisticly is adjective to tend toward reality. But it never acvhieve it, thats the point i am trying to tell. So no game can be real. NO GAME. But they tend to be. They try. Some are doing better then others. Atomic maybe didnt went enough far in your views. The demo was out there to try it. You dont like it, dont buy it to complain after. thats why i am asking for other games name to have a better choice. Choice is freedom. You dont have choice, you dont have freedom to buy a realistlcy ww2 games, stop playing ww2 games, or wait. I seen here a lot of angry and bitter people. Fionn is one them. Personnaly i dont like the film critics like the game ones. especially if they have conflict with in. Sorry if i have to respond on the same tone as him. Since he think he is the only one with a good opinion in here. And he is telling it himself. WOW a self judgentmental critic ""reviewer"". My question in the post was to ask why are you talking about an other game in here. It looking not very businnes like. I never heard about other games in bad in cc forums. And some poeple even went as far as making review on it. We play only ww2 games here. its just fun, we dont need to go personal or try to tell we have better opinions then others. I never did, i try to hear them. But the bitter things some are saying, make us divert from real discussions. BLACKHORSE_C16 was on point about realims. We cant make a perfect real ww2 game. and you forgot BLACKHORSE_C16 thats some europeen bridges could not have taken the weight of these armor monsters. some tank drivers need to have signalers to drive across small bridge. And also i dont have to tell you that even new armor suspensions can break arms and jaws. Imagine ww2 ones...

Thank you panzerleader.

So you are saying that CM will destroy some married couple ;( One advice, go to bed early. Their no reset on wives. ;0) Dont crash and burn like i did some years ago. Thanx KwazyDog , i went to the site, its looking like hex game like ALS or VforV series.

Tanks KwazyDog , do you know the site address? And yourself wich other games your are plying? Beside of course CM Beta Demo.

SS_PanzerLeader, in architecture we make a design. We try to do our best. the client pay us, let say 2000$. I take time to make plans for 2000$. But if i think like you, i should spend over 10 000 $ to make a castle. And in anytime the client have the go nogo options. He approves it, them we start the technical drawings. In reference we show him our other plans and houses we made ( LIKE CC DEMOS ). So if you dont like the Victorians houses we build dont come waste our time and your money. But dont go telling eveywhere that our plans were ugly since they dont represent you! But they sure represnte other tastes. Like movies, never listen on all the critics. Here where i live, the critics bitches about Star wars. But how many liked it. Its a mater of taste. So again tell us the other games beside BM beta demo your are playing. So i can buy them. That we call contructive critics, like the guy who talked me in good of CM. So here i am wishing i will like it. Do the same for me, tell me wich other games are good around. Dont tell me the ones you dont like. Thats not what i want to hear.

yes 15 KT and 15 JSIII. But now the biggest complain about cc4 is the combat groups. No more buying individuals units. So complaints, You were talking of the CC3 customs with no historic restrictions and pts. You dont need to make custom scenarios like that!! you can predifine what is for you an nice battle group. Now that some complain about it, we lost the faculties to make scenarios of other battle fields. The problem with real red these days is that poeple are playing 3 to 4 different close combat 3. Less players, less people to play with, less enthusiams. You see i can make complaints too!!! But i respect that some were playing mods, even thought it makes less poeple to play with. ;( SS PanzerLeader. Beside the CM demo what are the other game names? please tell us. And sorry for my typos, english is not my fist language. You know your not the only one on earth. And you dont need to make personal attacks, we are just talking a bout a game, keep your politics out of it. And no i dont take drugs. No need to make allusions of it. My orignal post was about why people are even bithing about CC in here. Do they wake up in the night to let the world they dont play it? I dont lile MS flight sim combat. I dont go in forums to talk in bad about it. I simply dont play it!!! So if the demo of BM you play now , you must have seen some bad things? I can tell a lot. But ill wait till they make the real demo. Who knows they corrrect all of them. If not, ill wait of they have receive complains about them, and then make a nice little comments, thats all. No bitching for years to come. No my friend i dont drive a Ford. I m very carefull of what i buy, but we are talking about tastes here. I like CC2 CC3. I can't tell you to love them. Its my choice, like yours to have a SS name. its yours. The thing i find very strange is to express your tastes here about another game, you dont like. thats why i title the post : Close Combat wishes in here? I dont attack you, i respect your opinions. but explain why you expresing yourself on a game you dont buy, or like. you just making it to prove your almighty right?

The problem with the word "realisticly" is that's a relative word. For some realisticly meens that we have real blood and ammo, for others its VforVictory series. In the same manner it applies to CM. Who says what is considered realisticly. Real dead soldiers or an computer genereted image of one? I think some are shoked to see CC not to be what they espected. I have dreams too about a perfect game. But since i dont have the money to realise it, CC is by far the game i consider realistcly the most accurate. Until i get CM of course. Even then that alsways a relaitive word to apply. Like if i say i am good. Thats relative. For the ones i win againts, i am, but the other i lost againts, i am not ;( The line at wish point a software can be realisticly accurate must be drawn by someone. Atomic did. You know that we never happy demonstrating in front of our governements, we see only angry and bitter people complaining abou dicisions made by the one drawing lines, on the knowlegde of the other silent majority. some even try to make type of players to push farder the relastic dabate. Real fighting Soldiers, hard core ww2 fans, ww2 freaks, JO gamer.... and so on. So ww2 game community have now social classes if we listen to some? The best way to solve ethic problems is, If you dont like the demos, dont buy the game. That's it that's all. So for me i wont buy the game until i see the last demo. Cause this one is not satifying for me. Of course its a real beta one. But if i buy the game and get very sad about my +100$ spend on it, i wont complain and cry for getting listen to. Since then, if they made enough sell to make CM2, they wont have time to listen to 1000 of people tell this or that. In Architecture we must draw a dead line to finish the design. If we dont , we sure will never finish. And a not buid house dont get us paid. Even if the plans were the best

I forgot, can i worked it out for the 45$. I can wash tanks and oil mg I can also do sniper netting. Oh.. also take your wife for diner. But if not. I still will buy it, but its nicer to work for nice things.

hehe LOS, Problems with cookies is the dogs in the custom area, they try to find explosives and illigal subtances. Since my grand mother cookies are illegal in all europe, you will get badly nail by making custom false statement.... and who know even have the cookie receipies stollen Demo is the safest. Since they small like real CD not cookies. That just my opinion of cooking....

Panzerleader. the SS one. Tell me the game you are playing now. Please tell. so i can play "a realy accurate game" please do so. You think Atomic is telling that just to make you angry at them? Just reading you makes me want to listen from someone else. I am surprise that they dont listen to all advicea from future customers. Ok, tell them to sell 10 000 copies at 30$ profit on each. Lets counts that. 10 000 x 30$= 300 000$ WOW they sure can have 50 employee at 50 000 $ a year....OH wait a minute they lose money!!! Let say 10 employes. at 30 000, They get even. But they dont make 30$ a box, they make 10$ So they have to sell at least 50 000 copies. So to listen to everyone, or take and compile data, they need people. Why not you give them 1 year of free time. I sure wont object. Help them bring us the best "accurate" ww2 game. And also you will take charge of all the complains and ideas given to you? i sure hope you do. But i am realist about gaming industry. If BM breaks the 20 000 copies, but if they not? how many hours of work was put on the game? how many people worked on it? Version 2 will due in 2000 or 2001? Do they espect to sell all in the first month? How much pub to buy or to give some to reviewers? so SSpanzerLeader you should be of great help to us if you help all of them... thanx, thats not an order private. dismiss!! The freaks are the one who are making war over a game!!! Quote: When is this line drawn? Who made the line? When we do not agree with you, we've crossed your magical mental figmentation of a line? Or maybe its governmental censorship that you are accustomed to, brainwashing seems to be evident in your rhetoric. ALL sheep please say 'BAAAA BAAA' thats my point, the line is draw by someone. Not by you since you are still in college. But who decide the one who draw lines? The ones who make the games. the one who worked hard to make it happend, good or not. They made mistakes in the eyes of some, but not to all. Ask BM designers how mant hours are pass making it possible for us to play it, and i hope we wont complain like you do. Like i said, if they ask me what i am thinking of it i will tell. If i dont like the demo i wont buy. The free choice. But dont try to make everyone thinking that your the reference on how to make a game. A game who will survive many releases. Yes they could have taken 6 to 9 months more to make it very accurate, but since they wont get their money back, we all lose. Accurate or not.... Yes sir, ill follow you down the russians lines to fight back and kill all other opinions, since you are the only one right here, sir.....do i have to say the heil too? Wich war crimes did you commited?

What game you are playing Moon? Tell us so we could buy the game you consider realistic enough to buy. Please tell us. I dont know better yet then CC. CM is very promising. I am very in your way of thinking R Cunningham, I think we should not considering to compare both. Moon should know better games that we all do. Yes i complained that my car use fosile fuel, but does it make them look at my request especially. The problems for them "publishers-designers" is to know at who to listen from. You are different then everybody else on earth. Why you think you have the right view? I could understand complains about the CC3 connecting problems some players had before the patch. But i had only 2 disconnections on 40 online game before it. And i think one of them was a disconnecting player. But i can see thats was a game flaw. But who to jugde everything else, thats design choices. Even of you tell me your view is better, the next guy will also say it's his.

In Stallingrade the tanks with no optics were brand new, they had no optics in reserve to put on them, so they roll them out of the assembly with none. It sure have made it difficult to aim throught the barrel of a gun. For weapons i dont think your wrong about wanting to have it with the real ones they had in WW2. I am in the same view. but its all the other aspect of real life battle that is difficult to make it work. We can try, but never will. I know you like turn base games. ASL was good, but makes people have control on all things. Sorry Panzerleader. Dont worry , i wont tell the war tribunal about you I know they have to listen to poeple, but who? On my side of the screen i can vote for you. But still the majority will still make cc3 like it is. ;-( the things is i dont complain about it. It makes nothing. It creat nothing. Sure i have dreams, but i can ask Chrysler to make a car just for me. Yes i can if i am Bill Gates. But i am not ;( Howard do you think they will model the game to everybody wishes? The dont even want to have open beta emails ;( I understant them well, cause its impossible to pass time for all that. If they really do, the game will end up here at 250$. At that price, ill start playing GI JO's like when i was younger and Gi Jo's had barbie for girlfriend *after battle actions* I have to get my sisters toys. Dont worry i still have cc2 and cc3 to play with, even thought people baninshed Atomic for unholy game making. Lets still praise the Devil 666. I should have said CC4.

1- ID software did it Fionn. They were small time designer. Now they sell to live with the sells. 2- And by the way i didnt say that CC was ever free, MS dont need to do it. They publish top sellers. But BTS is not Microsoft!!! They choose the ear to ear words to make themself known. They have the choice of taking years to become top sellers, or to makes thing happening. 3- Publishers wants to make a game for the players, not for only the hard core ww2. If you want to make thesis on ww2 actions repports its your choice. But we need a game who make us live ww2 actions. So to be the most realistic, an officer cant fly to a point to see the situation, he simply watch at his map and try to have units info by radio or signal. Fog of war was the most important of war. An officer with the most info on his onw units and the ennemy will likely win the battle, of could make better dicisions. 4- My vision is not better then yours, nor yours better then mine. But i am not the one who wants to sell it. Good for you if you think you find the right vision. But dont despise others. All views are relative of the viewers. If you think you almighty right, so you are, from your seat.... But ideas make things. Judgement breaks it

For the taxes problems and customs, Combat Mission should be send mark as a demo. no price tags on boxes. We always do that We are saving fortunes doing it. And credit card are so nice to do so.... Just giving you some of our tricks. Send me some sell profit oops again those agents at the door......

My main statements like Big Time Software mention is about Historical accuracy. Its is just a goal to look to, but never a game could achive. Like every military simulator cant either. The fun of playing these games, CC or CM, is what we espect from them. If you want to recreate a famous battle with all the actions and the units presents there; thats could be said to be accurate. But games tends only to go to an objective. The one of beeing the most accurate of all. But this perfection will be never obtain. some years ago VforV series was a nice game, who try to be historic in the command game category. Across the Rhine was a nice mix betwenn actions and command. I played a lot of stategy games since many years. Iron Cross, Perfect Generals, Steel Panthers, M1 tank platoon,D-DAY, Command HQ, and numerous "in the seat" simulation games, but CC is the closest of all for accuraties. Like i said thats not perfect, even then, each onme of you have a different version of perfection. The things i deplore is that some think theirs are the only one we should tend to. Atomic made their game, you dont like the vision, you complain. How can you espect them to response to all. Democraty is a compromise on all views. but a line must be drawn. My only hope for those who complain is that CM could be in their views. If not you should think of playing micro armors in your basements. For me, even if i dont know each name or what they ate for souper of every soldier in CC or CM, i still like to play those. I wont Stop playing CC. But please dont buy cc4 if you are buying to complain after. And for those who complain about tanks, you should have a driving course. I dont have problem crossing bridges, and my tanks rarelly turn their back to show their 6 to other tank "mooning". I hear it a lot, and see it a lot on my ennemies. Atomic should give driving and command lessons to some!!! Lets go far in the WW2 games, but let the chance of the designer to make them. I like the idea of CM. If i find flaws, i wont be the one complaning or going to call the homes of the designers, like some cc3 players did!! I will sure help them by buying the game. If they ask my opinion i will give it. They simply cant listen to everyone views. Atomic made choice base on the fact that if the game was the specific views of certain people, Close Combat should not exist today. They went for the selling for the regular people, not for the historians of ww2 freaks. 5000 copies dont pay bills. the one making cc3 mod know it well, if 500 people have their mods, thats a big "best seller" even thought its free So let the dogs of war go free, and stop making compairaison of games here. Panzerleader should be the one who make games and listen to all the sugjestions. Let say that sometimes costumers are like old complaning wifes, nothing is perfect in their eyes. for once you have to stop listening to it and make the job.

Well Fionn, is that so. so let me ask these 1- Why are they posting CC complaints in here? Could they influence Atomic? Could they make Combat Mission Better? Even combat mission dont want our advises, since we are too many; only on vision is made, not thousands. 2- DATA. You say it yourself. Myths. But you have to consider that every units have particularities, they are never equal. Some tank carried extra ammo, others not. Even in Stalingrade some tanks didnt even had a aiming divice for the gun, the loader had to look in the barrel to give instructions to the gunners. So dont talk about myths in war. Never 2 tanks performed the same. Some panzer didnt even had winter heather for their engine fluid. 3- the ones making cc3 mods are very nice to do so. But still some can complain about inacuraties and variants, but they had to make choices. i love cc3 mods. The only thing close to be the real thing is the ww2 weekend reinatments. Even those are inacurate since its not real blood. Think of a war game units as pieces you have to work with. If your good, you will do good whatever the kind of pieces you play with. Chess, CC, Combat mission. You will never have the plesure to fight Wittman tiger. since that he is dead. but we could try to make a game looking like it. But theres never one way to look at things. You can debate for years that your data is the best. Once people beleive the earth to be flat. I sure will love to play Combat Mission. like i am playing close combat. But i dont try to make my data to be superior of others. I play Close Combat , not SPY_EYE Combat. So i live with it.

Why not ask them to make a civil war game, lets attack the custom offices and throw the governemnt out!! Lets print money ourself. Lets taxes milk and bread!! oops. i have to go.... someone at the door...oh i better run FBI agents are treatening to enter the house. If i dont want to burn alive i shoudl surrender........ :-( Maybe imigrate to USA, you save on taxes. If they let you pass the customs...... without charging taxes for your body leaving your counties.....

The best way to make a game to be kmown is to make an kind of gaming zone for the poducts. Its a big window to show the marchandise.It sure difficult to compete on the market with fast food games like command and conquer. And to take a year to make it known by others, its too late already you have to release another one. One thing is good to make a product popular, is to make it free for the first version. We call it hook the comsumer. Sure it cost a lot of money to make it. But best sellers are made like that. Maybe, if its good, you can have a big buying offer... Like say enough to buy a car .... The trend now is the role playing sims. Take this game and make each units be a player, make teams and fight. Can you imagines the numbers of players you ll get. You make kind of ranking system to make officers and sarges. Then they give orders. Division forming and medals.... Can beat out Quake and all that kind. no need of AI. no more paint ball fight to clean clothes.... thats real war. a soldier with himself with ennemies in front and officer in the back. All that under fire. You sure make a fortune..... enough to buy a RV when hooked, the comsumer will keep comming back. Close Combat CC4 will still sell a lot based on previous MS publishing hooked customuers. How many software made their trade mark by beeing free the first years. Sure you need to sell your car the first release. But to buy a collection of....let say vantage ferrari Nice product. But i think still in developement to make it a best seller. But you have the basis to work with.

I didnt say that combat Mission was not good, to the contrary. But a lot poeple expect the game to be what each of them think it should be. To have a really AI you have to drive the tanks yourself. Even that, some are really poor drivers Or driving drunk . But even here i see poeple complaning about Close Combat. My point was that it is difficult to make the dreams of everyone come true, since everyone have diferent dreams. Mission Combat is another dream from someone. Even if i find things not realistic, i like it better then chess who represent totally inacurate units. who thought the calvalry to move in L and what about a tower who moves. Hehe, i exagerate maybe a little. But to make a game really accurate you have to make the impossible. Can you predict how much ammo a t-34 should have. In some periode of ww2 some lead attack t-34 had only 3 AP rounds. Because they knew all the panzer were likelly to kill them in the first min of engegement. So how could you make it show in a game. You simply cant. And the germans rocket launchers were not the nebelweffer that everybody think of, the not small 60 KG rockets. It was big ones, with flamable liquide in them. Napalm and variant. Their range was very short. and sure they kill. But the game in cc3 dont show the flames they sure did. And about bad drivers. Why do you think they put tanks of NKVD units behind the attacking russians forces. They shot every russian backing up and stoping tanks. In a real realistic game we should not give preicise orders, since its the sarges who carried them. No officers will tell to move the third tank 3 m left or right. He will simply say" Protect my flank or cover the bridge aproach in v formation 50 m wide. But how lovely to drive ourself. My comments were just post for the complaning ones. Not for the ones who are working to make it better. suggestions from thousands dont make anything. The castle wont stand if we make each of us plans. To make a war game better AI we should make it very dumb. So we could manipulate it more. But we sure will see some of our dumb tank crews not shooting if fired at. The answer to the AI is to not have one. And we can do anything with it. except we sure will need more then 2 arms and 3 eyes... oops 2 for some. why do you think Combat mission is played in sequence?. Because you have time to think. Combat mission have a weak AI, but the way the turn base is, makes it very controlable. So a lot a ww2 fans love to control. NO GAME CAN BE THE REAL THING. WW2 IS OVER...HITLER IS DEAD. We just have to have fun playing simulations. And its a command simulation, not a driving tank simulatiom. At the end its just dice rolls.......

Lets have a fine and open discussion about Close Combat and WW2. Everybody want to have their ideas in the game. Lets say that we have to make a choice on every dicision made. Like for exemple; Some wants bigger map, other complaint about big maps... Some want to tell their knowledge about ww2 weapons. Like the this tank do that and this. But on the other hand another player say differently. For weapons you have to adapt them to game play, since the only real thing about them is to get a ww2 rifle or mg and go play with it in your backyard. Even WW2 veterents dont tell the same stories since the half of their efficacities reside in the user. T-34 were the best all around tank of ww2. But were badly manned by russian farmers. But since them made 23 times then amount of all the germans armors. How someone can compete with those and having Hitler as supprem comander!!! Another exemple, Close Combat is a command game. So dont be surprise to find stupid crews driving some of your tanks. And yes some tanks turn their hull the wrong way. So crews did in ww2. Some even get lost half a mile from their own command HQ. I seen worse in comabt mission. i seen a sherman doing a skating ballet around 2 house with 2 inf squad with faust not even trying to shot at it. So i can call that AS = Artificial Stupidity. But i dont complain since funny things happend even in war. Sure only the ones who think they are the real reference in ww2 history and weapons complain about Close Combat. But what are you doing if your a real reference in that domain? you dont work on a software creation? Or you too occupied with signing autographs at the exit of a ww2 museum? So Atomic made choice. Some like classical music other think rock and roll is the only music valid. For me i like both, and i think the one who have time to complain are the ones who have time to do it. The others are working to bring you WW2 game to the confort of your houses "Bunkers". I can tell you a lot about choices. So even are related to Combat Mission. So why no complaints? Because Close Combat 2 made a big impression on a lot of people, and now they expect to have a real tank and all the crews to act like them.