Probus

Yes. I noticed that too. Well I tried to apply a metric to the invasion by the IDF. I still believe the numbers are telling, but we may have to agree to disagree. At least I may do some more research into those kind of numbers. (BTW, 7 buildings were destroyed in the 9/11 attack) Here is a bit of combat footage that appears to show the IDF clearing a building: https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/s/EeXFfGO4zb Dangerous work.

Yeah. I agree with you 100% @Anthony P.. I was looking for numbers that most reflect what the Middle Eastern community claims. Even if you flip the numbers from worst case to best case or somewhere in between, it still shows that civilian deaths per building destroyed is relatively low.

I believe, and this is wholey a guess, is that Israel wants to evacuate all of Northern Gaza to the South. Kill off Hamas in the North. Then evacuate all of the Gazans, through a strict filtering system, back into Northern Gaza. Rinse and repeat. Painful but may be effective with minimal IDF and civilian casualties in the long term. Whether that is going to be considered a war crime or just the new way to deal with lawless genocidal terrorists, only time will tell. After doing the math (<2 civilian deaths per building destroyed), with Al Jazeera's own numbers mind you, I am having a hard time believing Israel is bombing Gaza as indiscriminately as the press would have you believe. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the numbers I'm seeing just don't lie. With the numbers @Holien supplied, it is only 1 civilian death per 5 buildings destroyed (18,000 civilian deaths divided by 96,000 destroyed or damaged buildings). Even though that seems to be a huge number of buildings destroyed or damaged, just imagine how many civilians would have been killed if Gaza was just indiscriminately carpet bombed with 2000 lb bombs dropped by something like B-52s. At least an order of magnitude more deaths I would say. I just feel very sorry for the Palestinians. They are the real losers in this conflict. But I guess that's true of all civilians in all wars.

You are making my point for me @Holien. The more buildings destroyed, the less civilians killed per building. But @The_Capt makes a good point. How many civilians/building is a war crime and an arbitrary number. And Israel is just one bomb away from a disaterous result. Now I don't think that before the end of WWII was quite the time to discuss how many billions of dollars the USA was going to spend rebuilding Germany and Japan. That would have been a political death sentence. Same applies here.

Being an engineer, something just doesn't settle right with me. As of yesterday Al Jazeera says that 18,000 civilians have been killed in Gaza. (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/12/12/know-their-names-palestinians-killed-by-israel-in-the-occupied-west-bank-2) @The_Capt, you mentioned that "My concern at this point is that is IDF appears to be taking out around 10-20 building per hour." If that's the case, that means that in the last 46 days of fighting, 11,000 to 22,000 buildings have been destroyed. That puts the number of civilians per building at somewhere between 0.8 to 1.6 per building. Unless I did the math wrong (which is very possible since I'm a government engineer ) that hardly seems to be war crime levels of destruction.

Unconventional warfare sure does bring up a lot of good questions.

I would say the tournaments are a work in progress. Each tournament uncovers bugs and inconsistencies and makes the next one better. This is only the second round of tournaments.

Me too.

@The_Capt you are much, much more knowledgeable about the legalities of war than I am, but does the Geneva Convention even apply to this conflict? According to what I'm hearing, it's ok for Hamas to use any methods available to them but for the IDF, it's a warcrime to: Flood Hamas' tunnels. Bomb buildings with Hamas fighters. Level a city that produces vicious terrorists by the 1000s. Attack sites launching rockets into Israel. On and on... If you were the IDF general in charge of combat operations in Gaza what would you do? Risk warcrime accusations after the war or throw up your hands and say "I give up! - Cease fire"? I don't think you can't put UN observers in there. That is just dangerous and counter productive. Hamas, for one, would just kill or take them hostage whenever the situation presents itself. And would the IDF have to ask UN permission each time they shoot? I have no problem with folks disagreeing with some of the IDF's methods, it's a war, but they have to give alternative options for the IDF or it's all just pie in the sky. Wouldn't you agree or am I completely off base?

The IDF is trying its best to reduce IDF casualties. If there is a sniper(s) in a building shooting at them, should they run in there and try to kill the sniper? That could mean dozens of casualties for the IDF. The Israelis are sick and tired of taking casualties. Calling in an airstrike is the obvious thing to do. Especially since it is a proven fact that Hamas is using tunnels. Hamas doesn't care about civilian casualties. The more the better as this will continue to sway world opinion against Israel. And since when do you ever want to make combat in war a fair fight? In WWII they didn't hesitate to flatten a building if it had German soldiers putting up a strong defense. I doubt anyone even asked if there were civilians in the building. At least Israel is trying to persuade the Palestinians to evacuate N. Gaza until they can clear out Hamas. I wouldn't be surprised if they then ask the Palestinians in S. Gaza to move back to the North (or maybe to the West Bank) so they can clear out Hamas in the South. They will have to provide refugee camps at that point because there won't be much left standing in N. Gaza. Hopefully this will provide construction jobs to the Palestinian refugees that will allow them to rebuild and bring back some prosperity to the region. Something like Germany or Japan. But I'm prolly just dreaming here. On a side note, some of these liberal colleges that have been having pro-Hamas rallies are starting to get a taste of what it is they are supporting: https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2023/12/6/chabad-screening-oct-7-hamas-attacks/ or this one: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67629181 The world shouldn't forget what Hamas did to start all of this violence. I think the IDF believe that using extreme force in the short term will save lives (Israeli and Palestinian) in the long run. Anyways, Is there a way in SF2 to simulate civilians in a building with rebels, where you get points for not destroying the building?

Just as expected.

I stand corrected. It sounded like Israel was being blamed for war crimes in a situation that does not lend itself to the Geneva Conventions. I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir but, when you have combatants hiding behind and under civilians, it makes it hard to fight them and not kill civilians. High civilian Palestinian death tolls seem to have been part of Hamas' plan all along. I couldn't agree with you more. But truly, what options does Israel have left to them now? You know that one of the reasons the attacks on Israel were so bad is that they were trying to make life better for the Palestinians in hopes that it would ease tensions. Opening doors that had been closed to the Palestinians. Hamas couldn't allow that. That's one of the reasons Hamas attacked. Removal of Palestinians - no. Removal of Hamas - must be a yes. You really are very eloquent @The_Capt. I can't disagree with anything you said. I need to go back to quasi-lurking with my tail between my legs. I just hope Elvis doesn't shut us down for getting too political and not discussing how this war translates into a wargame simulation.

Watch out guys. You may be starting to echo chamber yourselves into saying that the Oct 7 attacks were not terrorism when CLEARLY, CLEARLY they were. If what Israel is doing now is considered a War Crime, just as Hamas knew it would be. Then I ask you this: What, in your opinion should Israel do strategically to fix the situation in Gaza after being brutally attacked?

FYI, for those of us dunces who couldn't find the observer on the Soviet side, it's the 'jeep'. I almost ran the jeep straight into enemy lines on a scouting trip when I noticed he was the observer.

Multiplayer does add a new dimension to the game albeit on a different timescale. You just need to find more reliable opponents @Centurian52.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/israel-gaza-situation-report-ceasefire-ends

Sounds like the ceasefire is over. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67589259.amp

Nicely done @Hapless!

Gaza is and has been a quagmire. Nobody (except maybe the Houthis) wants any part of it. There is no good solution that will make everyone happy. Yes. A Ghetto cleaning in which the occupants of the Ghetto were asked to go South or suffer the same fate as the terrorists. But even going south is just a delay because Hamas is there also. I know Israel will push into southern Gaza at some point. Maybe they can then allow the occupants/refugees of S. Gaza back into N. Gaza using some kind of military checkpoints cleansing (as best you can) Hamas from the population. Then start rebuilding Gaza from the ground up like the USA did Japan? Maybe? I'm not sure that would work either but Israel has to do something to protect themselves. This conflict will be hard to simulate without tunnels and a number of other features. IEDs and drones just to name a few.

We have a whole thread dedicated to Ukraine in the Black Sea directory.

Wouldn’t it be better if players didn’t have early access to these scenarios before the rounds are played? My opponent last game just moved around behind where my reinforcements came in. No sense of fair play at all. After turn 5, i refused to play against an opponent like that, so I stopped returning turns. I'm sure he will 'win' the round, but I don't care. This wouldn't have happened if the scenarios are kept secret. Or at least protected from pre-release. Or built so an opponent can't play the system. Takes all the fun out of the tournament.

It was discussed here:

And mines. Lots of mines.

That's a Steve ( @Battlefront.com ) and @The_Capt kind of answer! (Not to mention a few others)

Dang it @akd, the video was taken down before I got a chance to view it.