gunnulf

I think the thing you are missing is that whats being proposed here is not that a new TRP is created. This is complicated as while the firing unit would almost certainly register the target for future reference, this would not necessarily be shared with other units outside there own mortar platoon or artillery battery in the scope of the game timescale. However what is easy to impliment (IMH experience), and very very realistic is that the spotter should be able to call for a repeat of same mission if: a) the spotter hasnt moved and can still see the target the firing unit hasnt been re-tasked to another shoot. Here is how it works in principle roughly speaking: A rifle platoon/company commander calls for a fire mission. He is not on the mortar/artillery net so this is passed up the C2 chain to the relevant section/battery. The time this takes should depend on how many links in the chain the spotter is removed. In reality if possible an FAO or MFC will take over the request if he can get into position to spot. However not always possible and in game terms this obviously doesnt happen so the request is relayed. But essentially once the request to fire is approved and the initial delay factored in to aquire and lay onto target then there is an ongoing conversation between the spotter and firer until mission complete called. Its entirely realistic that the spotter might not be satified with the initial rounds had neutralized/destroyed the target and call repeat. Makes much more sense than expending say 30-40 rounds and wasting too many valuable rounds. And as said if there is an ongoing conversation (given the above considerations) then it makes no sense to have to wait several minutes to fire again. This goes even more so for an FAO or MFC that is on the artillery net with a direct link to his own firing unit. Its really not gamey. Its a very good suggestion to make the artillery system more realistic. Of course there will be times when you do want to fire a long mission too continously without even a minutes break as you can also cease fire (not so easy to time in WEGO though obviously)

You do know how a TRP is created in real life don't you? Either silently by meticulous calculation it is map plotted (made easier by GPS & computers now but good hard solid maths in WW2 times) or by firing spotting rounds and registering the settings at the firing section/battery. By far the more acurate at the time would be by firing rounds. If you spend 30pts in a QB then I believe this simulates the expended rounds used to register that target. Without going into too much detail as a former mortar platoon cmdr I can tell you we would then use aiming stakes in the ground to be able to quickly allign the tubes in the right direction/elevation even at night. I am sure that 'gamey trick' goes way back past WW2. Once a target is engaged FFE another stake is added and that TRP/DF is added to the map. So really firing rounds at a target quickly multiple times is not gamey. In real life these TRPs are not arbeitrarily created by the great scenario designer in the sky, they are calculated and plotted I am prepared to accept that 60mm mortars running around the map in attack might be a bit fast and loose about registering targets for future reference, but 81mm mortar lines and above will be doing their paperwork. And that said in the context of the thread even mobile light mortars should be capable of being told to fire 6 more bombs again very without much hassle so long as they havent moved or engaged anything else. This really is a simple addition to enhance indirect fire missions. If anything its gamey NOT to be able to call Repeat quickly... In terms of what could REPEAT i would say that in real life assets are attached to a company/battalion/battlegroup/kampfgruppe for the duration of the mission, given that they are generally 1-2 hours in duration not much would change. In game terms 60mm/81mm company level mortar would be 100% available and available to repeat at the same target. 81mm sections at btln level likely also 100% attached to a company for the mission. 120mm sometimes held at btln and sometimes at regimental level, however usually attached for the duration of a battle. Divisional level batteries of 75mm, 105mm & 150/155mm would often be attached to a btln for an attack and may or may not be 100% in support. This is where gets more difficult, however still very possible that so long as you are 'on the phone' to that battery then you have their attention especially if your spotter is an FAO and a repeat shoot would be very quick. Anything at corps or army level i.e. 170mm plus and naval support requires an FAO anyway. Here there is much more chance that they are also available to other battlegroups. However once again if the FAO has got their attention already, has them listening at the other end of the line/radio then chances are if rounds available then a repeat command immediately after previous rounds completed would be successful. However this could be modelled randomly maybe.

If a fire mission has just completed then the firing unit should be able to fire again almost immediately that the spotter request it, + flight time for the shells obviously. The only difference might be between fire units under direct control (ie under control of the company/btln HQ). Regimental, divisional or corps assets might have some random delay on a REPEAT command to account for them being not dedicated to the battlegroup and maybe have to answer another call. That said, once the FAO has their attention and they have rounds available then in reality more than likely they would be available to fire again very quickly if they are already trained on the target.

Thats not abuse. That is registering your guns onto likely DF locations. This happens in war, both in attack and in defense. Effectively in game terms this is what is happening with the TRP prior to the battle, except instead of spending 30pts you are spending ammo. So long as you have clearance to fire you drop a few spotting rounds and record that TRP/DF for future reference. Usually really only applies to own section/battery really in WW2 terms ie. barrels in the same firing line. However what is proposed with this REPEAT command is that the same unit fires at the same target a 2nd time, provided it hasnt subsequently shifted to another target. In no way is that gamey or an abuse.

not super gamey really, quite realistic. Rounds are valuable and to be conserved if possible. Calling for 12 rnds FFE then for a repeat if the target is still not neutralized/destroyed is not gamey. The firing unit and the spotter would both prefer that rather than 24 rnds in the first place. Of course its possible to call harass/light RoF & maximum maxiumum duration and cancel when like but a) that can burn through your ammo in a couple of minutes before get a chance to cease fire (http://combatmission.wikia.com/wiki/German_Artillery_Characteristics) if your spotter gets killed you might not get a chance to cease fire End of the day Repeat is a fire mission tactic and perfectly ligitimate request. As per the original post once FFE called this would be effectively a registered TRP on that battery's map for future use. But in game terms at least I would think once rounds complete on a mission then would not be a big deal to have a button for repeat to at least fire the last shoot again quickly until such time as that battery was otherwise tasked.

It wont be that the tubes need to cool down. On maximum rate you can burn through your entire stock in minutes. I think 'repeat' command is a very good call. Until they fire at another target it should be a valid option for the same spotter. Also be good to see FPF option (final protective fire) - a sort of super TRP. This was fire brought down right in front of a (or even on top off) a unit that was about to be/was being overrun. Would have to be limited/expensive, and maybe only deployed on an objective, and perhaps only dedicated btln/regimental mortars/guns. But should be very quick, like 1/2 minutes. By doctrine guns train on the FPF when they are not firing at anything else so as to be in action almosts intantly following the call to fire FPF. However in the meantime REPEAT would be great

250/7 comes with the mortar platoon for the pz recce btln in the mech section. The mortar is dismounted but the HT holds extra ammo. Gives 120 bombs oer section/pair I believe.

Daddy, what did YOU do in the Cold war?

I've noticed this too when a platoon behind a wall got ripped apart. Its probably because the guys behind the wall have to take a knee to fire over the wall while those in the open are kissing the earth. So, if they are getting more of of penalty for being on a knee than they are recieving benefit from the wall. Given that its a computing game that needs to calculate odds its prob simple maths. i.e. in a completely made up illustrative example: 50% chance of getting hit in open basic A coy gets -5% for kneeling & -15% for wall = 30% chance of hit B coy gets -25% for prone = 25% chance of a hit Even a small difference will add up over 100+ guys firing rapid I guess. But also possible they are effectively presenting more of a target profile above the top of the wall than the prone guys are. Head, shoulders and half a torso - vs - Head and shoulders. This marginal difference could add up too over the test. In which case its the modelling that exposes too much.

What was great was the Sgt Major, rather than bollock me for not engaging the proper targets dispatched his black lab on a 1.2k round trip to collect the unlucky bird and brought him back. Good drills! We let him eat it rather than risk adding it to the range stew...

Dammit, there is always somebody with a better story! Did I say pheasant? I meant hummingbird... Is this the digressing my mum warned me against...?

Yeah, ok .30/.303/7.92/7.62... all similar species 5.56 might have limitations past 300/400m (though my best shot to date is still a pheasant at 600m with 5.56mm ) and 7.62 rules beyond that, we are talking urban warfare here and 5.56 comes into its own it terms of mobility, ammo etc... But I know the futility of arguing with a cold war warrior and convincing him to give up his trusty SLR...

All very interesting but thats a north american house, they blow away in a light breeze You'd have to be totally fresh out of any other ideas before you took cover in a building made of cinderblock and plywood And don't you think he'd get bored of repeating 'and passed through the mannequin wearing a fragmention vest' 25 times..? Why not just call him Dave at the start & then could just say 'and Dave got slotted again' thereafter. You're welcome Mr Voiceover. European houses of the time made of stone (not all were obviously) would be a totally different proposition. Also bear in mind that modern 5.56 nato tends to have a steel core to better defeat cover and body armour. Latest 5.56 calibre would now be better than .303 And as has been stated above any decent army would be re-inforcing buildings with timber struts, sandbags, mouseholes and loopholes (which would have been the answer to the orig subject of not getting shot looking through a window) if they intended to put up a serious fight in a building.

I just can't find any evidence of their use in Normandy, other than mounted on LST support ships. I dont think a land based battery was deployed until later in the year, but would be interested to hear otherwise.

If you add a 0 to the end of that price then it makes more sense. I bet somebody has made a typo and they should be 690 & 850 respectively. US rockets in Normandy were not very widespread unless this represents USN landing craft rocket barrages, in which case rarity should increase in july/aug44 like with warships. Until fixed its got to be house rules really. On a similar note 1,114,884 rarity for 12in battleship in july44 seems like somebody dropped pickles from their sandwich while developing too... I mean there was only one in theatre (USS Arkansas) but 1million rarity seems a bit OTT.

map QB 127 (large rough bocage) is 0.5k wide and 2k deep. That might work for you.

however, back in the game then the US forces don't have 17pdr so they are going to have to rely on tactics and maneuver rather than getting in a slugging match. Trouble is in QB's panther G has zero rarity and really isnt that much more expensive than shermans. House rules needed so as not to stack up on panthers and make a dull game. There is of course air support with rockets, but you need to persuade the panther to sit still for about 11/12mins first...

Haha, yeah I was thinking as I did all the tests I bet they adjust all the RoF next week....

Added German artillery rates of fire and other characteristics to the wiki. Some duration testing not complete yet. Will finish tmrw maybe: http://combatmission.wikia.com/wiki/German_Artillery_Characteristics

Notes on data below: ■ Naval assets can only be directed by FAO ■ Naval assets fire in salvos/broadsides based on their number of guns ■ Mission stats calculated by firing for Maximum duration until rounds complete. This gives the cyclical average rate of fire. As stated though generally salvos are fired so shells arrive in a relatively close group, then pause depending on RoF until next salvo arrives. However at heavy RoF for DD for example the actual salvos seem pretty continuous! If the rounds per min is less than salvo size likely there will be at least a minute gap between salvos. ■ Duration stats again reflect the salvo characteristics. On anything more than Harass RoF and Maximum Duration then most fire missions will be over in under 1-2mins. For a longer fire mission (given the relatively long delay to set up) then maybe a good idea to call Harass/Short RoF for maximum duration and then ceasefire when you feel the enemy has a big enough headache. Beware Heavy/maximum as all rounds will be expended in 3-4 mins (though that will be impressive boost to friendly forces morale! popcorn anyone?) ■ Ships are cruising several miles offshore thus even in pre-prepared missions add approx 30secs flight time for rounds to land on target. ■ If you select point target on a building once it is destroyed the mission will cease fire. Even 14in doest seem to breach bocage though... ■ Beware safety friendly forces distances for the heavy stuff. BB shells particularly have a danger area of at least 150m to troops in the open and drop shorts do happen... ■ Ships names included for scenario building purposes. DD List not complete I think but CL, CA, BB are complete for USN although some other RN ships provided support from time to time. SHIP DATA 5in Destroyer DD 5 x 127mm guns 260 shells 52 salvos USS McCook, USS Fitch, USS Hobson, USS Plunkett & USS Carmick (other similar DD off Normandy - USS Butler, USS Emmons, USS Corry (sunk D--Day) - 4x5in / 'USS Laffey, USS O'Brien & USS Barton - 6x5in) Mission (Rate of Fire) Harass 10-12 rnds/min max 25 mins sustained Short 25-30 rnds/min max 10 mins sustained Medium 35-40 rnds/min max 7 mins sustained Heavy 70-80 rnds/min max 3.5 mins sustained Duration Quick 1 salvo 5 shells Short 1-2 salvos 5-10 shells Medium 3-4 salvos 15-20 shells Long 5-6 salvos 25-30 shells Maximum 52 salvos 260 shells 6in Cruiser CL 12 x 152mm guns 300 shells 25 salvos No USN 6in Cruiser's operated off Normandy. Royal Navy support of this size provided by HMS Glasgow & HMS Mauritius Mission (Rate of Fire) Harass 20-25 rnds/min max 13 mins sustained Short 30-35 rnds/min max 9 mins sustained Medium 55-60 rnds/min max 6 mins sustained Heavy 95-105 rnds/min max 3 mins sustained Duration Quick 1 salvo 12 shells Short 1-2 salvos 12-24 shells Medium 1-2 salvos 12-24 shells Long 2-3 salvos 24-36 shells Maximum 25 salvos 300 shells 8in Heavy Cruiser CA 9 x 203mm guns 153 shells 17 salvos USS Quincy, USS Augusta, USS Tuscaloosa, Montcalm (French), Georges Leygues (French) Mission (Rate of Fire) Harass 8-9 rnds/min max 18 mins sustained Short 12-15 rnds/min max 12 mins sustained Medium 18-21 rds/min max 8 mins sustained Heavy 35-40 rnds/min max 4 mins sustained Duration Quick 1 salvo 9 shells Short 1-2 salvos 9-18 shells Medium 1-2 salvos 9-18 shells Long 2-3 salvos 18-36 shells Maximum 17 salvos 153 shells 12in Battleship BB 12 x 305mm guns 84 shells 7 salvos USS Arkansas Mission (Rate of Fire) Harass 6-7 rnds/min max 13 mins sustained Short 9-10 rnds/min max 9 mins sustained Medium 13-15 rnds/min max 6 mins sustained Heavy 25-30 rnds/min max 3 mins sustained Duration Quick 1 salvo 12 shells Short 1-2 salvos 12-24 shells Medium 3-4 salvos 12-24 shells Long 5-6 salvos 24-36 shells Maximum 7 salvos 84 shells 14in Battleship BB 10 x 356mm guns 70 shells 7 salvos (Available June 1944 only) USS Texas & USS Nevada Mission (Rate of Fire) Harass 3-4 rnds/min max 18 mins sustained Short 5-6 rnds/min max 12 mins sustained Medium 8-9 rnds/min max 8 mins sustained Heavy 16-19 rnds/min max 4 mins sustained Duration Quick 1 salvo 10 shells Short 1-2 salvos 12-24 shells Medium 3-4 salvos 12-24 shells Long 5-6 salvos 24-36 shells Maximum 7 salvos 70 shells

Naval fire characteristics page added http://combatmission.wikia.com/wiki/US_Naval_Fire_Support_Characteristics Will work on the artillery soon

Yes ships all seem to fire in salvos each time (though couple times saw a slight odd number). The rounds per minute in that table is from testing Maximum i.e. keep firing vesus the Rates of Fire. For the 12in BB if you set harrass/maximum it will burn through all its ammo in just about 13 mins, and on heavy it will burn though its ammo in about 2-2.5mins. Thats how calculated the average RoF. However as stated below the data ships do fire in salvos, and the other RoF settings only fire a few salvos.

I just knocked together a rough table for Naval assets. Firing for maxium duration to burn through all ammo: DD 127mm 5 guns 260 shells Harass 10-12 rnds/min - max 25mins sustained Short 25-30 rnds/min - max 9mins sustained Medium 40-45 rnds/min - max 6mins sustained Heavy 80-90 rnds/min - max 3mins sustained CL 152mm 12 guns 300 shells Harass 20-25 rnds/min - max 13mins sustained Short 35-40 rnds/min - max 8mins sustained Medium 55-60 rnds/min - max 5mins sustained Heavy 110-120 rnds/min - max 2mins sustained CA 203mm 9 guns 153 shells Harass 9-10 rnds/min - max 17mins sustained Short 13-15 rnds/min - max 11mins sustained Medium 19-22 rnds/min - max 8mins sustained Heavy 50-55 rnds/min - max 3mins sustained BB 305mm 12 guns 84 shells Harass 6-7 rnds/min - max 13mins sustained Short 10-11 rnds/min - max 8mins sustained Medium 16-17 rnds/min - max 5mins sustained Heavy 30-35 rnds/min - max 2mins sustained BB 356mm 10 guns 70 shells Harass 4-5 rnds/min - max 17mins sustained Short 6-7 rnds/min - max 11mins sustained Medium 8-10 rnds/min - max 8mins sustained Heavy 20-25 rnds/min - max 3mins sustained With regards to the difference between Quick/Short/Medium/Long in tests I did all seem to have pretty much the same result i.e. each mission type fires 1 salvo on quick and 1-2 on short & medium and 2-3 on long. The only exception was DD which seemed to fire 1 salvo for Quick, 1-2 salvos Short, 3-4 salvos Medium & 5-6 salvos long mainly due to the smaller amount of barrels on DD i'm sure. So with the heavy stuff maybe unless just want a quick stonk of 1-2 salvos (bearing in mind if do might be several minutes to fix next mission...) then best to maybe fire on Harass or Short RoF for maximum duration and then cease fire when had enough. The faster RoF might burn through all your army before you get a chance to check fire But pretty devastating though! Point of interest I had a drop short a couple of times which KIA'd 1 or 2 of the FAO team even though 140m from the dropshort impact. From experience on arty live fire that not unrealistic in the open though they were prone. I guess thats the next test of lethal & dangerous safety distance for different shells... another day though.

Proper use of wire and other obsticles is to channel the enemy into your killing ground. If wire forces him to re-route into an area you have covered with a pair of sMG42 or whatever then it should be worth every penny. Likewise mines placed in choke points should pay off, though a massive barrier minefield probably not so much.

Top man, diky mots Martin. Krazny! I am going to try and expand that to some of the heavy stuff when i have time.