~Viajero
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Posts posted by ~Viajero
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viajero - I am pretty sure I didn't recommend human wave anything. And you can easily send artillery to the middle of a forest - not all missions are reactive fire on point targets. You are allowed to pre plan missions, and you are allowed to use the circular barrage pattern. Also, if the Germans are so deep in the trees, you can approach the front of the forests with impunity and their heavy assets do essentially nothing to help them.
I don't doubt that plenty of American commanders get the rest of it wrong, trying to razzle or to rush. But it isn't hard to make numbers tell in woods fighting. You just do not mass. Instead creep LOS slowly to many of few the foremost defenders, and relieve any platoon that gets shot up or low on ammo with a second line, then a third. Standard attrition tactics - outlast on a limited frontage where maneuver it irrelevant and you can trade one for one.
Lost in translation I guess. I used the term "wave" just because you used it in your recommendation to suggest an attack in a wave like pattern as opposed to a concentrated fist. I understand perfectly well what you meant but took the liberty to use the word in a totally different sense for narrative purposes and to reflect what I feel the americans need to do in those forests to have a chance.
Since I set up relatively deep (enough to avoid direct HE) the Amis took hold of the outskirts of the forests indeed. IMHO this outcome is inevitable since the 2 jgdpz are not nearly enough to stop the sheer infantry numbers the American has in this scenario; and the MG´s supressing power... well, that was also discussed in another thread... Only artillery would stop an approach to the forest me thinks, and that can be countered by properly placed smoke. Also, to be effective the german arty needs to be properly timed with, or just before, the Amis push for the forests, which is not a given. The Amis have it slightly easier, first the Shermans sanitize the forest outskirts keyholed from a distance just in case the german was foolish enough to set up there, then pop smoke and get moving.
But after that any attempt to incursion deeper in the forests by those men has been countered by a defense line that concentrated fire on any incoming target, more or less one at a time, so no chance... He can not easily implement an overwatch and advance squad pair type of attack either as visibility is really limited and any attempt to overwatch supression is at best meh ... unless he either synchronizes really well a line move with a very short range overwatch (quite difficult to physically align and synchronize in game due to the 8x8 tile effect) or he decides to do a russian wave like type of attack there, since he s got the numbers. If he does the former he better synchronize well... If he does the latter in a broad line covering my flanks eventually I am pretty sure he ll get significant supression effect from those units I can not shoot at and I will be cooked in no time.
The attrition system you propose also seems like a good way to break through, and the scenario gives plenty of time for it.
Regarding artillery to hit defenders in those two big forests, meh at best aswell in this particular scenario as both "point" and "line" targets will simply wont work deep enough. As for Area fire it will probably waste a good 1/2 to 3/4 of the barrage outside the forest itself, plus the only way to make it reach deep enough in the forest and up to suspected german positions is to really make the circle big which really disperses too much the shelling to be of any effect unless the Amis struck lucky (my opponent tried and failed in this case at least, shells falling nowhere near my troops and wasted in the outskirts). Pre planned artillery would be the better choice to ensure full hit on the forests. Still those forests are big, could be hard to hit bulls eye on the german positions here plus also without having seen how the German plans to defend after a few turns it is a bit of a gamble.
The American can still obviously make it! He just should not count too much on artillery or Sherman HE to soften the forests defenders in this scenario me thinks (unless the german decides to set his infantry at the forest outskirts in easy reach of the Shermans and spotters that is).
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Why yes, I do remember that one!
It sounds like you're doing a lot better than that other guy who played as German.Well, only so far... thing is also this scenario has so many frigging turns that at some point I am just bound to run out of AP ammunition; or just ammunition, period
Given the force size ratio, the attrition war is not for the German side here. -
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As for how to attack against superior armor, obviously it is the most difficult of all tactical combined arms tasks. And the attempt presupposes you have offsetting advantages in other arms, along with numbers. If the odds are only even and the enemy has superior tanks, you have no business attacking them. So I will assume you do have odds, including in the artillery and infantry categories, as well as more total AFVs, just less capable ones.
And the main method there is to lean on the soft firepower, first and foremost. That means you intend to destroy the defense by killing its infantry, not its tanks. Instead of "drawing trump" by first engaging tank to tank or trying to locate and destroy the enemy AT network, and then leaning on armor for fire support, you reverse that relationship. The soft firepower attack is the main thing, and the threats it creates want to expose the enemy armor on favorable terms.
This means artillery barrages lead, again. It means your own tanks keyhole to isolate on only forward positions of the defense, infantry outposts, which they hit with HE. The idea is to give the defenders no shots at your armor from his tanks, unless he moves his tanks to hunt yours. Your tanks should not move to any location your infantry hasn't passed over, to see what enemy vehicles are visible from that specific spot. Your infantry attack should be wave like rather than a concentrated fist, probing for weakness and grabbing terrain the enemy doesn't occupy strongly. Nibble a way in with keyholed firesupport plus these probes.
The idea is to present the following dilemma to the defense - either let the infantry battle be lost, or escalate and intervene in that battle by moving the defending tanks to get LOS to the attacking infantry.
Now your infantry threats are "bait", and your TDs, bazookas, and lesser AT weapons are the hunters. Everything but the TDs needs to cross fire with another weapon - a zook close from the northeast and a 75mm Sherman far from the northwest, for example. The idea is to force the Panther to face one or the other, and bag it with the one is doesn't choose. Naturally, the less he knows about where such threats are, the more likely you are to bag something, which means tanks are conceal whenever possible, and zooks are advancing slowly inside cover, behind a screen of the squad infantry.
It is a positional battle. You don't try to razzle dazzle your way in. Let him do all the razzling, you focus on safe moves, moves by modest infantry elements covered by AT threats. Do not rush. If he stays in his lair keyholes with nice covered flanks, stay in the LOS shadows created by his lair and leave him alone there. He is irrelevant unless he comes out.
See the idea?
Wow. This advice seems text book case to play as Amis against germans in the "Bois de Bogin" scenario (the one that the BFC guys used for their first AAR before release, remember?).
The germans have "just" 2 Jgdpanzer IV of those that have a cracking frontal armour, and the Amis have around 10 75mm Shermans that can´t probably penetrate thos jgdpz at starting distance. The Amis also have at their disposal a 3 or 4 times bigger infantry force plus significant artillery and other lesset AT weapons.
Now the thing with this map, as I am playing with germans against a friend (and he has already lost around 7 of his Shermans against none of my Jgdpz plus his infantry has stalled at both the main forests outskirts), is that as long as the German infantry positions itself deep enough in the forests it is really difficult for the Shermans or any artillery barrage to support with HE that advance (in space, no one will hear you scream = deep within the forest no HE will come to support you).
Plus the middle of the map is quite open and LOS barriers are limited, so the german can easily position his armor in excellent hull down positions overwatching most of the map. The American will struggle to find proper keyhole posiitons for its Shermans (other than to attack the little village mid map), and he will be forced to attack the forests russian style and literally as per your advice... human-wave like.
Other than that, it seems smoke is king in this scenario if the Amis want to get anywhere. -
And that is why I "feel" leaving actual positioning of AFV´s should be left up to the player.
Limit the AFV´s behavior to calculate if in its CURRENT position/orientation/roll situation if it can have LoF or not (including its vertical axis angle limitation though). If yes, fire, if not then an option would be to consider it to behave as under a "no ammo" or "AFV TacAI withdrawal" or equivalent behaviour (given there are other AFV´s or units identified as a threat that can not be shot at and no other targets have been assigned to the vehicle by the player), which should already be both there built in. As long as they dont fire but they do not remain there as sitting ducks either I d be happy. Leave it up to me to choose its new location next turn.
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If I recall correctly the argument against this is that it would frustrate players to no end. Imagine waiting a full minute before being able to have a tank shoot (+ GUI to represent this). There would be a lot of threads about tanks not shooting while it is *obvious* all they had to do was move 5m forward, etc...
It could probably be done, but then at the expense of something else. This is just a compromise. They same ones like not having friendly fire for small arms or the blast of tanks firing not stunning/hurting anyone nearby etc...
As I edited in my post, asuming a vertical angle limitation had been implemented, then when tracing a Target LoS line from your vehicle or waypoint the message should appear so you know (same as "hull down" messages etc). I guess that a routine that checks vertical angle limitation based on estimated vehicle orientation at the way point would have to be added in this case.
During a replay obviously you may not find out, but tracing that Target LoS from a way point or from your vehicle in your next orders turn should confirm the issue. In Real Time, well, you should be able to check any time.
Anyways, it may seem from what you say the issue is not new and has been already discussed, if the final decission to allow the tank to shoot was taken as a compromise so be it!
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I am speculating here of course, but rotating a SPG to shoot at something does not change the position of the SPG. To shoot at something that is too high, you would need to move the vehicle and that's when things become difficult. There are many exceptions that would have to be considered and which are not easy to do well.
I am not suggesting the vehicle actually had to change position or find a firing solution location, but simply establish if in its CURRENT position there is a shot possible at all or not based on horizontal and vertical angle limitations. If a shot is not possible but still in LoS of an enemy AFV recognized as a threat then proceed to "no ammo" logic and behaviour until either a shot is possible or LoS is broken (or the player gives a new order obviously).
An AI routine to find a firing solution position even if successfully implemented may indicate our vehicle to move to awkard positions whereby they are exposed or otherwise unwise anyways. I much rather leave that to the player to decide, and consequently leave the IA with a much more simpler "no ammo" or similar logic (TacAI withdrawal behaviour may be also good enough) that would not interfere much with the player´s original intent.
The vertical angle limitation would have to be shown when checking a Target LoS line to a potential target for the player to realize the issue (much in the same way "hull down" or "partial hull down" or "reverse slope" messages appear now), otherwise the player may never know why his tank was not firing though.
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I obviously do not know anything about the engine or how the AI works but afaik the left/right angle limitation seems properly modelled in SPG´s (no turrets) for example, which need to actually turn the vehicle if the target is beyond those set limits; so wouldn´t a vertical angle limitation follow a similar programming logic?
If the engine concludes the shot is not possible a quick fix pending a full IA remodelling could be that the vehicle should behave as if no ammo was left for example, no? (hopefully that logic tells the vehicle to at least move back or away from LoS etc). And that logic (no ammo behaviour) has already been built in I hope! It would then be up to the player to reposition based on his own judgment.
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Silly question here... were your PzIV buttoned up or were their TC's little heads sticking out scouting?
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Yes, will do. Thanks.
Another quick one just to make sure: once decompressed and in the z folder we do not really need to move all files to the z root folder now do we? Leaving them in each subfolder should also works, correct?
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Hi there, thanks for this!
Quick one, I have not been able to read through the whole thread so this might have been answered already, apologies:
I am playing as German, Iron mode, in 3 scenarios as of late and although I have installed the mod I can not hear any of the new American voices.
Would that have to do with the fact I am playing Iron? Or is it simply that you can only hear those mod voices if you play amis?
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So rather than detour a tile or three... they burn a demo charge on an outhouse and wake up the whole world at 7:12 AM.
"Path's clear now Sarge!"
"Way to go Private."
"But I'm a Corporal Sarge!"
"Not anymore you idiot."
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ROFL
Wait a sec, just to make sure I understand this correctly... the AI will blast (if a blasting option is available) any destroyable items in its path as long as there was no other faster alternative to get to their ordered target waypoint or as long as there was NO other alternative to get there at all?
As per your comments I understand it to be the former (scary)... just need to make sure.
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Spoilers:
(Iron difficulty) IIRC I simply used the infantry with Hunt orders upto within 30m from area objectives, then slow. Parked said units for a few minutes and not a single shot was heard. I also gave a short cover arc in case I spotted first to prevent firefight.
I then also moved a couple of vehicles to said spots and nothing happened.
I then tried to go and find more about the defense emplacements as requested by the scenario, but whenever I tried crossings fire erupted from the amy side across the bocage. I used area fire from my vehicles and supressed a couple areas. I even managed to see an AT gun placed right behind the bocage in one of the corners at the main crossing, and decided to head back and exit.
The debriefing showed a minor german victory and did not stated anything about the AT gun detected (?).
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Thanks for this.
Could you please add also Punta de Lanza, one of the biggest CM fan sites of the Spanish speaking community. We also speak English and welcome all nationalities!
This site runs competions of all sorts, and is big in all CM game series. Punta de Lanza also hosts many other Wargames and there is a good forum to discuss our favourite hobby and/or find opponents outside the regular competitions, for pbem or whatever you fancy. Other games hosted in the site are: War in the Pacific, Close Combat, War in the East... but we also have a big community around many other miscellaneous games like the Slitherine series, Dominions, BloodBowl and many more...
http://www.puntadelanza.net/Foro/phpBB3/
Punta de Lanza is also proud to have one of the best AAR sections around, you can waste away hours on end in its AAR section just reading and looking at the detailed graphic reports of some of our players.
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My guess is, if BFC is going to add Hunt and Armored Arc's to the CMx2 engine, it would be contemplated for the next family release, Battle of the Bulge. In all likelihood, it will not be contemplated until then, at the earliest.
Argh. I really hope you are wrong in that guess!
I have not seen anything regarding the Hunt command from BF, but I recall something from them about the armour cover arc... and you confirming that it was indeed for the next "big release" or something, which would mean the Bulge, yes.
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Maybe Battlefront hopes that we will forget this issues if they stay quiet long enough...
We need at least a Hunt command for AFV's only and Armour arc's for AT guns !
Be carefull with the armour arc request. IMHO it should be not only for AT´s but generic for any unit you want to give the order too (be it your AT gun, one of your AFV or even AT device armed infantry!).
As also mentioned by others, in my personal ideal world:
- Hunt command: unit stops when it sees a unit it can shoot... once target disappears your unit continues the move.
- Armour covered arc: it can be given to any unit! (guns, armour or even infantry)
- Move to contact: stops completely after enemy unit spotted.
Hunt command + armour covered arc order combo given to one of your AFV would therefore make the AFV to move until an enemy AFV is spotted (not infantry), attack it AND continue movement if all armour previously spotted disappears from sight. It would ignore enemy infantry.
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Quick bump on this to see if anyone knows anyhting new. Did not find a BF answer to this yet? And the SF forum seems to also not have it, or maybe I missed it?
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I thought that the ability to view LOS from a waypoint was way too God-like, at first.
However, the fact that it doesn't actually tell you what your units will be able to see when they arrive there mitigate this a lot
GaJ
Yeah, nothing is perfect :-) Your forces see what they see... you still have the power of the Borg in you though... and unless the sought unit is in a too tricky spot, often times you can tell if the blue line touches the area or not...
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Hmm, have you tried checking first with a Target order on the destination way point?
Once you have planned the move, select the last way point with the mouse. You ll see it becomes a bit bigger. Then select "target" and plot a LoS line to wherever you need it.
Although the line still comes from the original position the color code of the Los line it is indeed that of the destination way point you have selected.
Maybe you were already aware of this, just checking.
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Ok. What was the mine type in your case? personnel only or mix?
Does anyone have an idea of the area (or action tiles) covered by each minefield counter? Does it vary depending on the type of mine (armour, personnel, mix)? I have not found this info in the manual... maybe did not look hard enough?
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I ve had some limited experience with using minefields in defense so far and would like to hear what others have seen.
In my case a "mixed" mine field web set up in the open fields leading uphill to one of the forests in the "Bois de bogin" scenario. A couple of squads advancing on "quick" passed through fully with only 1 casualty and the rest of the men kept on running happily.
Are minefields applying any special or added suppression effect of any kind on passing squads? I.e. maybe I ve seen too many hollywood movies but my expectations would be that before a detected minefield (i.e. 1 or 2 casualties at least), the rest of the squad would stop moving or at least continue under a slow pattern. In my case the minefield was detected upon explosion/death of one of the soldiers (confirmed by my opponent) but both squads continued on Quick as if nothing had happened.
Any other experiences with minefields?
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What about the Spanish site that generated a bunch of pictures, etc. just before it was released?
I thought the whole reason why they received a copy prior to release was so they’d generate a review.
You mean www.puntadelanza.net ?
I am active in that group. Let us check with Santiago (admin), but as far as I am aware that is not the case. Either that or the admin team is working on it confidentially. :confused:
At any rate puntadelanza may be one of the biggest CM (among other games) fan sites in Spain but its audience when compared to a mainstream pc game site or print magazine is probably smaller, and what´s more, you got us sold already!
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Just sneaking two minutes on the computer before Herself notices I am not "doing things". My thanks to those who are contributng to this debate and/or have asked for a copy of my Test Map . I'll be back with proper responses as soon as I can satisfy Herself that I have done sufficient "things" (given the size of the pile in the ironing basket it maybe some hours).
I believe Herselves supression is completely undermodeled.
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Quick one for those doing HMG tests: were the HMG left to the TacAI to decide targets or where you forcing area fire where appropriate during the infantry advance. Do you think it would make a difference?
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Well stated.
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Bottom line? Use area fire, target static enemy positions, and use them for suppressive fires more than as direct killing tools and they do what they are supposed to do.
Not sure you agree entirely with what JasonC just posted. If I got it right I believe he is still questioning the supression and/or moral mechanism in the game for troops under HMG fire, and qualifies it as maybe "undermodeled".
You seem to suggest that HMG are currently doing "what they are supposed to". May be that is strictly correct from the HMG point of view... but their target's reaction does not seem to be as I would humbly expect.
I´d tend to agree more with JasonC based in my limited experience so far with the game.
It sounds like you're doing a lot better than that other guy who played as German.
Panzer V against any US tank
in Combat Mission Battle for Normandy
Posted
No, no. Not asuming that at all. I have edited my post to clarify this point. Those woods are big, trying to set up an area fire order that reaches somewhere near suspected german posiitons will probably result in a too big area that will disperse the barrage too much to be of any effect unless you really struck lucky. As mentioned, at least in my particular case, my opponent has tried area fire this way and failed miserably so far. The german does not need to set up in a single position either wich also minimizes any potential disaster there.
Preplanned is probably the way to go, agreed, specially with a delay built in in case the german surprises the american with an outskirts defense set up so to have time to cancel the barrage