snake_eye

Here after, is the link to view the part one of the Thunder Run video of 15 minutes. It will take you from the departure line, through the bridgehead and on to the hill overwatching Cain, hills houses, Abel and the west yard

Some of you seem satisfied that the « Exotic »tanks and in particular the R-35 and 38H won’t be in the initial release.* If, I have read correctly the announcement, “Battle For Normandy” will cover the 3 months period for the US and German forces, after the D-Day landing on June 1944 till the Cobra breakthrough in August Some of you wrote that to use “Exotic” tanks as the ones mentioned, we might have to wait the British and Canadian forces release later on. More, that will be a necessity, if one wants to make a scenario about the 21st Panzer division counter attacking the British forces as soon as the 6th June. So, I am just wondering why the Tiger Mid and early are in the initial release, since they only have been seen during these 3 months period on the British & Canadian hold front. As a matter of fact the only Tigers and Tigers II found in the S. Panzer Abteilungt 503 and the S.SS Panzer Abteilung 101 & 102 did not encounter the Americans forces during that period. If we look at the release as an historical simulation the Tigers are coming early and the R-35 and 38 H are missing. If we look at it as a simulation, then it is no more important, we can have a Tiger in a scenario against American troops like the one found, only God knows why ? (however, not very well depicted) in “Saving the private Ryan”. After all simulation are meant to recreate or create some specific condition and see how it goes. If we admit that, then I wonder why we are continuing to argue on the value or the non value of troops and their materials opposed to others in an historical context. But closer than the historical and or simulation matter, there is another one, a very important commercial decision that had to be made and Steve wrote about it : “If we had to put EVERYTHING in the first release that saw action in the first week of combat in Normandy you could expect a release date of 2012. Nobody thinks that's a good idea, especially us, so that means that something isn't going to be in the initial release. French vehicles are definitely not the most important thing to include first round.” So, let it be.

That is sure, since they are not in the initial release !

That's right. The biggest danger was in the small river bed. The flooding seen around was made with the opening of La Barquette ( A D Day objective) doors letting the sea get in at high tide. To drop in with full gear and the chute falling on top, had been, for some, an almost impossible task when it was a little deeper than waist deep. To get in the swamps even today, to watch the birds, the ducks.... has to me made with caution. Cheers

A picture of a Sherman Duplex Drive hit by a German gun, having been pushed aside, on one of the exit flooded causeway from Utah beach head. This is an “exotic” picture, since not that many were landed and just a few got so far to help the Infantry in the first day. It is however a good picture showing the reality of the deliberate flooding made by the Germans Engineers and the difficulty to progress inland, but on the few causeways, registered for indirect fire and covered by AT guns. That could be a good scenario with infantry moving inland with water knee deep and Sherman DD being sitting ducks on a causeway, while German 795th battalion enrolled Georgian’s volunteers’ are fighting from crossroad strongholds. It was the most important D-Day objective of the units on the beaches to get across the swamps areas, to be able to deploy and link with the Airborne P.S: I am not asking for a Sherman DD, a normal one could do it for a scenario. However, I have no alternative for the Renault R-35 and the Hotckiss H39 (38H) found around the beachheads and more precisely in the British sector on the east of Caen where the 21st Panzer Division counter attacked on June the 6th and latter on. Among them, the Panzer Abteilung 200, with numerous French tank, modified by Major Becker. That is the unit shown on numerous German propaganda movies, with the well know one with Rommel inspecting it. Some of these tanks, like the Pack 40 75mm gun,mounted on the French Hotckiss tank H39 (renamed 38H by the Germans)were attached to the Kamfgruppe Von Luck for its counter attack. There were more of these found around than the Panzer Abteilung 503 Tigers and Tigers II(King Tiger) in the first month of the battle of Normandy.

Here a shot of Germans collected tanks parked in a field near Montebourg. They are mostly Renault R-35 with the obsolete short 37mm cannon . Yet, the 221 seems to have the longer version. The very powerful AT 75mm gun from a Marder can been seen in the background. It might have belong to the 709 Panzerjager Abteilung

I am surprise that taking so much care of the details for American troops and the Germans, you have completely forgotten the French tanks and carriers that the Germans had around Utah beach and the Cherbourg peninsula, to speak only of that area. These R-35 Renault tanks, the tracked ammo carrier, with its German counterpart the NSU Kettenkrad were the first one that the airborne troops saw in the first days of the invasion. These last two carriers were immediately used when captured, since they lacked vehicles at that time.The panzers, in small numbers at first,came a few days later. I am not going to do any lobbying for having them, but just have present to your mind that you are forgetting facts that made history in these first few days. Not having them is somehow distorting the rendering of what these days were. Airborne remaining veterans would feel left aside even if it is a game and a pretty good simulation. It deserves these tanks and carriers. merry Xmas Steve

Whow ! To do a scenario with such possibilities is a designer dream it has to be a Xmas gift now. Barbed wires, sandbags, trenches, water, ponds, footbridge, X-ton bridges..... even guys with hands up ! At the first time we heard of "Normandy" I wrote a post asking if there will be cows in the fields or poor sod cow left on them on their back. They aren't any, but the graphics are such that no one will wonder in a coming future, if they see a german soldier milking a cow ! If you kill the cow you get negative points, even if you see a pair of boots between its legs; beware of the cows... ah! Ah !

I had missed the beginning of post page 15 before posting mine. George Mc Ewan has certainly a scenario that could be used by jnt62006, since they are usually very well done and by that enjoyable. That it is a very good idea Gibsonm had. For the rest, reading at what you have posted it looks that we have two schools. The one, that we can call the War College School and the other the Gamer College School. Each one, might complies with what the player is looking for. On my part, I am more War College and by that I will rather prefer an action close to reality. That is a normal, since it is closer from my background. That brings me, to a simulation approach of the game. I don’t care if I win or not (in the scenario needless to say) depending on the briefing being done. What eventually, annoys me is the liberty taken between a briefing which can be very well done and what has to be made, a totally unreal way to comply with it You feel like a poor subaltern with a higher up telling you to do it, because that’s why you are here for. That attitude is fortunately, more found in history books, pointing out to such a case that it happens in reality. In my Thunder Run testing, I wanted to reach, after breaking through the bridgehead a tactical objective on high ground from where I could keep an overwatch on all surrounding ( Abel, bridgehead, Cain, hills houses, west yard….) and direct from there, call fire mission. I have reached that objective. I had however, the road after the Abel bridgehead checked and that permitted the reinforcement to get through with almost no opposition, but the troops remaining there sustained some casualties doing so I had no intention to get into the West Yard and the houses around the bridgehead. I just wanted to break through.. Tactically, since the Reds were left alone in just a few pockets, they had a future not well assured and they had missed their objective, which was to deny the bridgehead to the Blue. Since they fired, the ROE allows returning fire with no restrain. Artillery or bombs would be the best way to get rid of them without getting into a costly MOUT fight. On my part, I did not stick to the briefing, because of my War College education. Ok I should be fired. I assume that, but I have saved some lifes. Less than I had whished it to be, just because I wanted, by curiosity, to see how the game will react in the time allowed. That is when, you see in a simulation, what you should not have done and why. Merry Xmas to all of you

Having in that Xmas period, tight time schedule preventing me to finalize the Thunder video, like I want it to be ,it will be longer to post it, than I initially thought. I also have though, Jnt62006, these last days that you could use my Helluva Road opening for a tactical move consisting in securing and or clearing an area along the road. Since you are thinking about a defence, it is still possible, but you will have to use the Red position against the blue. Yet, I don’t have any A.I done for the Blue. You could use also the Counter Attack at El Derjine since it is a defence scenario and there is a lot of room to move tracks around In any case if you feel interested by any one of my scenario Go ahead. Just a last idea. Look at the Jsir Al Doreea scenario. It is a small defence one. Just modify the file in order to begin the move right away instead of the computer doing it till the troops arrive to the compound. If you need me, to modify a parameters or something else, let me known. Have all a nice Xmas

Hi Jnt62006 , Having found that to overcome the enemy in Abel, the west yard, the hill houses and Cain was short of an impossible task due to the time allowed and then the points set parameters, I have come to the same resolution as yours. So, I define a tactic, play it and I am satisfied if it goes the way it has been planned. If I end with a total defeat defined by the set up parameters, I don’t care anymore. About my Thunder Run : I have decided to stage the units near the last bend of the road leading to Abel. There, you will see on the video 2 Scimitars from the recce Plt (By the way one of them disappeared during the assault and I have not been able to find it again. No, I am not joking. No trace of it in the snap shots or the video. It is a complete mystery. I swear that there is no Tavern around the corner with pint ale available!). The 7 Plt rejoigned as well as the Manoueuvre support C pioneers. They moved on line ready to jump at the correct time. The other half of the Recce Plt and Co C HQ units troops had been moved on the hill crest edge in overwatch position. The tracks and the remaining Scimitar stayed below the crest. The Mortar fire controller want immediately to work. Air being called on the Hills house and the hill after Abel, near the right bend of its long stretch of road. The mortars were called on the bridgehead lightly at first and a short while after, the target area was extended from the bridgehead to the compound of houses along the road. It is at that time (the enemy being pinned by the mortars) that 7 Plt jumped from its departure line, move across the bridgehead and went to position itself along the compound houses walls. That way it provided suppressive fire for the following elements. The tank troop rejoined and moved to an area at the end of the compound houses on the right of the road, where the river turns right into a gentle valley. 8 Plt moved in, bypassed 7 Plt and turned right into the valley and went uphill to have an overwatch position on top of the hill where they consolidated. A group HQ FO rejoined them and called AS90 on to the hills houses and then on Cain to prepare an assault, since 52 minutes time remained. The Manoueuvre support C A.A pioneers came along and stayed in the lower part of the valley while moving and turning left, to get near the road if necessary. 8 Plt keeping an overwatch with one Javelin team having rejoined. The tank troop move from its preceding area along the Abel to Cain road, till they were in defilade, Cain being in view. During all this time, I have not fired on the west yard. Tactically speaking they could not harm me and they would have been unable to comply with an eventual retreat without taking immediate casualties, from the overwatch troops. Doing so, I lost a Scimitar at the bridgehead and had a Challenger immobilized. 7 Plt lost a Warrior and while securing the road another one. ……..In order not to spoil the ending, I am stopping this narration, which is what the video will show.

Thunder Run done, it ended the way I thought it will. I have done some videos and snapshots. Just a spoiler before posting them this evening or tomorrow at the latest. I was able to start the assault within 30 minutes and speed by the bridgehead and all the way down the road. As far as the end of the left side road compound. Let you wonder meanwhile about the result. Ah, Ah !

QUOTE=DaveDash;1219531] This has always been the case. I'm surprised you mowed down your own guys though, seems HE in 1.31 is only effective against BLUEFOR. Yes AI artillery is much improved too. Nice screenshots by the way. I have a feeling the best way to tackle that walled compound part of the town may be to set up supporting base of fires on the hill to the east, overlooking the buildings. Either that or screw the ROE and just shell it to pieces. Hmm actually, bringing 155 down in a line on the walls of the compound would be a good way to get in there.

Here after are 5 snapshots of the assault on Abel bridgehead and subsequent move near it. The time frame left is shown. The enemy troops icons that may have been visible have been removed not to spoil anything.

Good news dave, what did you promise the enemy to obtain that surrender ? Ah, Ah ! BTW, I have noticed in your video that while playing RT, you used the pause quite often. Jnt62006 does it also, as I do. it is certain that the time you use while looking around what next order and or move you should do, helps a lot in keeping the time frame down. Since, I have seen your videos, I am very much inclined in doing it more often. I might steal 5 or 10 minutes that way ! whow ! Speaking about the patch 1.31, I have noticed, the bad way, that when you are firing at a building with a track to help the assaulting troopers, you better switch its fire or stop it, as soon as the troopers get to the building. they got right into the path of the cannon shells and they went down seriously wounded. I got engineers mowed down that way at the taller building. Before the support fire, If I am not wrong was stopped before we got a blue on blue. yet, that was not the case with mortars, artillery and air assets. Another very good thing, I have noticed in one of my last scenario is the ability of A.I FO to deliver mortars and or artillery on the battlefield. During the testing, I was astonished the first time it happened, so good the shelling was.

Dave, jnt62006, Thanks for the videos and the naming of the softwares. I am already using FRAPS since a few years. The unregistered version. Good for snapshots, but difficult to use with the video limitation. I think, that I have to decide to put on the Xmas list either FRAPS or Camstudio 7. To get back to Cain & Abel. I do think that the only way to get toward Cain would be to get to the bridgehead within 01:15, (time left), at the most. I was actually, at 01:03, at the curve of the road, ready to start an assault with the scimitar and 2 dismounted squads toward the bridgehead. At 0:56 they were at the objective. At 0:51 the scimitar was destroyed by the survivors of a squad, hidden in the right house at the bridge exit. At 0:40 the left and right houses near the bridgehead were cleared as well as the mosque. I then started to move for assaulting the high building on the left with engineers. That way, they were able to enter from the river side, after blowing the wall. So if you are at 0:56 on the objective, following my actual time frame, you have 1 hour left to move forward. From that time, you must absolutely avoid to get engaged by the enemy swarming in the Abel houses. A rear element could keep them busy a bit latter, without really engaging them to avoid unnecessary casualties. That way, the bridgehead, will remain open. So, as I said, your troops and the tanks should keep rolling forward as long as the road stay straight, then turn right, toward Cain. Don’t take care of the buildings near the bend of the road. Artillery should have disposed of them. At the bend of the road, I think that you will get tanks (that will depend of one of the A.I multiple plans), ATGM and all sorts of crazy squad ready to blast your forces, to please the designer, with complete disregard to their own casualties. So, before, you get to that bend of the road, you must have decided of a tactic, to avoid high casualties. Since you realize that you won’t be able to apply the same one, that has been done at Abel objective, you known at that moment, that the time frame will not afford you with a sufficient remaining time. Since, I don’t want to get into the scenario editor now. I shall try (for fun) the Thunder Run tactic and see how it goes. However, I am not too certain of the result. There is a great chance that it turns out badly, I shall then and only then get into the editor and put one more hour to the scenario. Without looking at anything else !With 3 hours at the clock, I think that I will be able to play once more that scenario and if I am cautious to get to Cain. To be able, to secure Cain is less certain, I am basing that on the knowledge of the way previous scenarios have been made.

Hi Dave Dash, Saved your videos. I shall have a closer look at them. Seems that we all did about the same time to get to the bridge head. Actually , if I am not mistaken I went farther than you did at more or less the same time. But I got engaged in a house clearing fight and that is what I consider now, a mistake that should be avoided at all costs, if one wants to be within the time frame of the scenario. Will post some pictures of the time frame and troops advance latter. BTW what software do you use for capturing your screen video ? It was a good job doing the video, Dave Cheers

I really think that to do it in 2 hours, you have to get a thruway all the way down to CAIN, You won’t have the time to flush a coin in the bridge’s toll booth while going past ABEL at full speed while making a remake of the famous THUNDER RUN for the seizure of Baghdad. More seriously, since I have reach, in Elite RT,theTime Limit and been able, only to take the bridgehead and the different houses around. That comprises the left and right houses and the mosque at the bridge. Then the houses along the river on the left and the taller building taken to have a good view on the road coming from CAIN. I also cleared the first few houses at the corner of the crossroad and got a tank as far as the houses all the way down the road leading to CAIN. I lost a Scimitar as written earlier while securing the bridge and latter a track and a Challenger while clearing the corner’s houses. All my troopers casualties were mostly sustained while assaulting the taller building, since I feared that a tank counter attack might come from CAIN, that building was the place for a Javelin’s team. That is why I really felt obliged to move a little bit faster than I would have like enduring unwanted casualties. To answer your question about the West Yard, I only kept an overwatch on it and did not feel that it was safe to get the tracks on the dirt road going through it to outflank the ABEL left side. The enemy got a pounding with snipers, mortars and Scimitar. The right road going to ABEL is a bottleneck, but it affords a better protection and a safe passage till the curve from which, with smoke cover you can reach with 2 or 3 overbounds the bridge. That assault took place like a well rehearse drill. It took around 1 hour to 1 hour 20 minutes to secure the bridge head and to begin to move toward the taller building. I was also diverted by the move of the units toward the bridge to prepare the subsequent assault and by the overwatch being deployed more precisely near the West Yard. Contrarily to JN62006, I have not seen one tank and or track from the enemy, so we can definitively say that they are few A.I plans. The British got a Minor Defeat at TLR Blues sustained 13 KIA for 62 Reds, 21 WIA 23, 0 MIA 45, 1 Tkl 0, 2 Avl 0. An annoying fact was that for Abel I did not get any points and neither the enemy did. I got the 100 points for not reducing to ashes CAIN and only 50 points for ABEL due to the damage done. Red got 137 points for the casualties they made me, I had none against them. The Red got a bonus of 100 points for their friendly casualties, I had none. Blue ended with 150 points against 387 points for the Red If you read what I posted earlier about the set up parameters you will have all the answers to what could have been avoided in that scenario. Once again I started it with pleasure, it has a very good map and the landscape tends itself to numerous tactical issues. For the rest it fits perfectly to my post comments. That is too bad. I have nothing more to say

Well jnt62006, I am waiting to read your tutorial (already saved) till the end of my fight. I have secured the ABEL bridge and the troops are now beyond it. I also lost, in the action at the bridge head a scimitar from a squad hiding in one of the house. With 40 minutes time remaining, I don't see how I could get to all the others objectives without taking un considerate risks. I was expecting, what seemed to me a normal reaction from the enemy, a counter attack from tanks that should have come from the road leading to CAIN (since their approach would have been hidden by the hill on the right), but for the time being, no one has shown up. The scenario might have few A.I plans ? I shall try to finish my battle without reading yours and look at it at the end of the battle. Predictably from the professionalism of your recent AAR you will fare better than me. Bring them shock and awe. Cheers PS: It seems to me that 2 hours to reach the objectives is a bit short. Am I right ?

Thanks Roach, We are not going to focus on the do and don't of the camo, since we could speak about these for hours with pleasure. Just one thing, if expertise comes around after many years, that doesn't mean that it brings an absolute truth. Sometimes and more often than wished, a mistake is not that far away. We have all known that the hard way, bringing home what looked like a good buy and which turned out to be a buying error. The good thing is to enjoy the history going around these pieces of equipment. Cheers

Hi Roach, I am a little bit embarrassed to tell you my feeling . I truly think that the collectors really thought having genuine camo. If the vests look, from the picture, like the real stuff, the pants, on the guy standing on the left, indeed don’t. Just look closely at the following close up of your picture to see the difference. For the left pants, the blotches pattern is really different as well as the tissue which seems to be less thick than the HBT used on the genuine camo. It reminds me of some camo made for the Vietnamese ARVN, Rangers or Marines during the ‘60’s or Asiatic country. Having collected these things for years and made expertise at different times on demand, I would not buy the left pants. Their blotches pattern made me react right away.

Michael Emrys Quote: Originally Posted by Roach A pretty picture of WW2 US Army Camo: http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/...yWW2Camo01.jpg From the book, The World War 2 GI in Color Photographs That is virtually identical to a camo shirt that I had in the early '60s, at least for the color pattern. I can't swear, but the cut of the garment looks the same as I recall too. Michael That looks like a re-enactment picture. If you look at the vest, the pattern is very well done. Unfortunately for the pants it is somehow different. Here after a picture taken from a Military collector review “Armes Militaria Magazine” depicting a 2nd Armored Division GI , around Saint Lo in july 1944. The cammo vest and pants are original ones, like the Garand and the webbing equipment. The only recent thing is the guy dress with it !

You are going to like these. Ah Ah ! Yeah, the German SS cammo pattern was better than its US counterpart. The Austrian Army and much latter the Bundeswehr used some kind of peas and or Leibermunster pattern (see below). Yet, it will be of some interest to some of you to know, that the German had in mind to issue only one cammo pattern in 1945 to all arms, WH, WL and SS. That new cammo pattern is the ’45 cammo “ Buntfarbenaufdruck 45 or Leibermunster” as it is known, looks mostly, for the colors (the pattern is not really similar) like the NATO cammo from the ’80 or the ERDL woodland of the US Army, albeit without the streaks of white. Amazingly, the cammo had blotches of dark shade among the various ones of brown ,green(2 shades: dark and clear) , white, red (rust red) found on it. The dark blotches were derived from charcoal pigments. They were used to render invisible the cammo in the infra red spectrum. The German had deposited a patent for that, despites the fact that they were engaged in a full war. That is why, you found these dark blotches on Nato cammo of the ’80. These German cammo, said the historian Rolf Michaelis were issued to units of the 101. Jager Division , as it has been confirmed recently by pictures , and to the 20th SS “Estland” (estnische Nr.1) Grenadier Division

Very well know picture, among others, taken in CANISY in the first days of the COBRA break through, showing soldiers belonging to the 2nd Armored Division. The Division units having been identified wearing these camouflage uniforms are the 41st Armored Infantry Regt and the 17th Armored engineer battalion. Some unconfirmed reports, are saying that the 30th Infantry Division might have also received some of these uniforms. The cammo uniforms were distributed to the 2nd A.D at the end of June after it had landed. The reason pertaining to the distribution of the cammo, still is not know to these days and hypothetic explanation have been written These camouflage 2 pieces uniforms were not used after for reasons ranging from : It looks like the SS camouflage (actually it is very different looking) to the fact that it shown the wearer more when he was on the move that at standstill. The real reason is still to be discovered through documents or known facts from veterans. If you know something, let me know. Having had in the past years, SS camouflage uniforms (from Normandy battlefield ), US Army cammo 2 pieces uniforms ,USMC cammo 1 piece, and 2 pieces, I can tell you that US Army and USMC pattern looks almost similar, the color being slightly different depending on the batch of delivery. The SS ’44 peas pattern and summer time color (the one used in Normandy) has no similarity to the US Army pattern. Naturally, someone not knowing in ’44 what that uniform was, might think that the guys were Germans. As a matter of fact, the Poles in the Chambois area of the Falaise pocket thought, that the first US troops they had seen , coming toward them, were Germans. The fields being covered by haze the US helmet seemed to them a German one ! During the COBRA breakthrough, some civilians coming back to their farms seeing the US cammo uniforms, thought that the Germans had come back. Being in areas having been just evacuated by some SS units, you can understand easily such a mistake. Lets not forget that the information was not at the time what it has become today with TV. They did not have at the time real time news.

I had not seen your post. That explain, why your previous analysis was removed. What you have discovered, once on the ground could be part of the type of FOW found in RL analysis despite all the high technologies available. AH, AH ! Awaiting your revised analysis to compare it with my own fight being planned today. You made me to play it, straight from the box, without any change . Cheers