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Der Alte Fritz

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    Soviet early war restructuring - how did it help?

    in Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin

    Posted

    "The German attack in 1941 smashed the large and complex Soviet force structure and clearly demonstrated that the Soviet officer corps was incapable of efficiently commanding and controlling so elaborate a force."

    The thing to remember is that the pre-war officer corps had been decimated in the purge of 1937 and although many of those offices subsequently came back from the gulag, Rokossovsky being a prime example, many of them were broken men. So the June 1941 Red Army was short of decent officers and the huge losses in the west meant that even those disappeared. So the Army in front of Moscow was made up of nearly raised divisions with '18 week wonders' type officers or gulag returnees and veteran divisions from the East and a handful of experienced Eastern officers (the Eastern officer corps was more lightly touched by the purges). The number of pre-war officers who survived the collapse in the West was quite small and they invariably operating at several levels above their level of competence.

    0

    Kursk battle in III Pz Corps area

    in Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin

    Posted

    JasonC

    With regard to the Tigers strength, each Pz Div was given a Tiger Kompanie of 15. The one attached to the 7th (or maybe the 19th?) had 13 out of their 14 Tigers non operational by the end of the first two days fighting, mainly due to mines. So i suspect the one with the 6th was largely intact with a few non-runners along their advance. After all the only fighting that they had done in the first two days was to over-run an exposed battalion on the very flank of the Rifle Division that the 7th was fighting.

    I think the biggest remaining question is confirmation of the idea I have gained from map study, that the 92nd was occupying prepared defences in the 2nd Belt. The 6th's after action report in Jentz mentions a lot of mines and an AT ditch 4km in front of Mellechowo. Later they report another lot of mines on the far side of the road - the road along which the 92nd deploys. This could be that the defensive line ran along the south side of the road and the field to the north was one of those flanking fields to guard the side of the position. If they were occupying fixed defences it would have given them an advantage rather than just trying to dig new trenchs in a field.

    I think the flanking fire of the 94th RD was crucial as the 6th is only able to get forward once the 7th Pz has cleared them away. Then they have a relatively easy advance, followed by a nice drive cross country until they meet retreating Russian forces at Rhevez where Dr Baake does his "Ghost Column" feat. At this point the German advance is parallel to the defensive lines and so they never meet the Third Belt which is to the NW.

    0

    Kursk battle in III Pz Corps area

    in Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin

    Posted

    Jentz numbers as follows:

    Schw Pz Abt 503:

    5/7 39 Tigers

    6/7 another 5 join total 45

    between 5th and 8th:

    34 fell out: 2 destroyed, 7 hit by enemy, 16 mine damage(13 on the first day), 9 breakdowns, for a total of 34 leaving 11 operational.

    22 repaired so that by 1200 on the 8th there were 33 operational.

    6th Pz Div:

    4/7 105 tanks (actual types given)

    8/7 72

    9/7 70

    10/7 22

    This is rather strange as according to the text, there was no fighting on the 5th and 6th as the division followed in the tracks of the 7th Pz Div, the main days of fighting was the 7th and 8th and during the 9th and 10th the division rested in a wood albeit under artillery fire and "a number of panzers were hit and caught fire". Anyway the fighting around Melechowo had cost the 6th - 83 non operational panzers and its strength would not recover before the end of the battle.

    0

    Kursk battle in III Pz Corps area

    in Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin

    Posted

    Thanks JasonC for this information, we are staring to build up a nice picture about this battle.

    I have a topo map of the area and am in the process of marking on the various units, taken from the Glantz article that you cite. It will make it a bit easier to see the effect of the flanking fire from across the river. Will post the Jentz information a bit later on when it has been added to the map.

    Also the Axis History forum is translating an article for me about this action from the Russian side.

    cheers

    0

    Kursk battle in III Pz Corps area

    in Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin

    Posted

    Thank you

    No that is really useful. Only comment though, on the map the 148th is shown in the lead of the 280th RR (92nd GRD).

    The battle in essence, is the 92/94th GRD move forward from the 3rd Belt into the 2nd Belt defences. 6th Pz advances along a hilltop between two river valleys, runs into a anti tank ditch, then a minefield - clears that with Pioneres but then runs into the 280th GRR. The Russians meet the Germans with AT fire which pushes them back initially, but the Germans try again, break into the defences but Russian counter attack with more guns moved up and the tanks attacking. Germans halted and fall back a little. Jentz has operational strength falling from 100 to 50 odd. Germans hampered by the 94th on the other side of the river valley getting flank shots with their AT guns.

    the 6th has to wait two days before the 7th and 19th can come up to clear the flanks and it can push the Russians out the back of their defences.

    cheers

    0

    Help needed translating a Russian map

    in Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin

    Posted

    I have a Russian map which has a number of symbols that |I cannot translate. Can anyone help please? They are:

    bO-4op

    NAT-280 (Artillery Regt of 280th Guards Rifle Div?) Gun symbol

    1c6-aeaHzupd (1st Regt .............)

    NT pe3 cn (AT Bn .........) 45mm AT gun symbol

    Powa "TemHaK"

    originals at:

    http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/maps/1943SW/Kursk/280GdsReg_Belgorod_s35reg_July07_43.jpg

    http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/maps/1943SW/Kursk/280GdsReg_Belgorod_s39reg_July07_43.jpg

    0

    CMx2

    in Combat Mission Campaigns

    Posted

    No it will not work with CMx1.

    Also you miss the point. CMx2 Normandy will be June 44-Sept 44, NW Europe only. This will be delivered mid 09 and then two more modules by end of year (SS and Empire). Then you get CMx2 Battle of the Bulge late 09 early 10. Further modules for that??? You are looking at mid 10 for the first of two Ost Front modules, probably Op Bagration and another.

    So CMC will have a good two year plus life span for Ost Front fans before anything arrives in CMx2 form.

    I think the most noticeable change from CMx1 to x2 is the time scale as you will not be able to do those scenario series following a unit through a campaign, or see a large range of vehicles types.

    cheers

    0

    New player: Need some help

    in Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin

    Posted

    German Sample Forces

    Panzer Forces

    Plenty varies with era, attacking or defending, mission and terrain. And there are all sorts of purely optional variants in terms of what guns to take and other forms of support.

    1943

    Here is some for the Kursk era, ID parent combined arms, attacking or ME portion of the question -

    A modest portion of armor would look like this -

    5 Pz IV H

    Vet Pz Gdr company

    Vet Pz Gdr platoon (4th), not armored.

    2 251/2

    1 105mm radio FO

    Vet sharpshooter or extra LMGs

    HMGs can ride the tanks, with HQs and radio FO. 81s wouldn't be able to, so for those you either want 251/2s or a few HTs to help move foot teams. One flakwagen or dismounted quad 20mm or 37mm AA can also make sense, e.g. for one of the 251/2s.

    If you had more points you could double the armor, and it would still be a realistic mix.

    When you have tanks they work in pairs, at first supplimenting the heavy weapons from range. But once the enemy starts to weaken - the same time the Pz Gdr mech force below would send in its main body - the tanks close in along with most of the Pz Gdrs.

    1944

    5000 Point Panzer forces

    13 Panther

    2 SS Mot. Pz Gdr Company

    2 SS Arm. Pz Gdr Platoon

    6 Schreck

    4 SPW 251/9

    3 105mm FO

    Tasking - Use 8xSPW 251/1 from the Arm. platoons to transport the heavy weapons. Make 2 support groups each with 2x251/9, 4x251/1, 2xHQ, 4xHMG, 2x81mm (using company HQs). These can operate full strength or in half sections. Use the dismounted Arm. Pz Gdr platoons for battlefield recon, each with 2 half squads backed by a "patrol" of 2x8 men plus HQ. Use the "patrols" to KO enemy half squad scouts. One Panther can support these scouts. The 6 Mot. platoons each pair with a team of 2 Panthers and form your main body. Keep at least 2/3rds, as much as all of it in a "fist", on a frontage of no more than 2 platoons. Follow the most promising avenue of attack found by the scouts. If you detach 1-2 of these platoons, use them for a fixing action or a feint before the main attack. The heavy weapons can go on either flank of the main body or participate in the fixing action. Wait on the artillery until you have driven the enemy into a contained space, then fire with the full battalion of 105s.

    Or

    14 Tiger I replace the Panthers

    Add one veteran Mot. Pz Gdr Platoon

    Only 2 SPW-251/9

    Task as above, with a 7th platoon with 2 Tigers, may be used as a reserve or to add punch to the scouts.

    Or

    As original, but

    4 King Tigers

    8 Panthers

    For tanks. Drop the SPW 251/9s. Upgrade one FO to 150mm or +3 schrecks or 81mm FO for smoke.

    Don't mess around with the armor war in such large engagements, take a full company of high powered armor and just win it.

    3000 Point Panzer Forces

    12 Pz IV

    1 SS Pz Gdr Company

    1 SS Pz Gdr Arm Platoon

    3 SS Pz Gdr Mot Platoon

    2 SPW 251/9

    4 Schreck

    1 120mm FO

    Less potent tanks but still a full company worth, working 2 per infantry platoon. Smaller heavy weapons section and limited artillery support. The last thing to cut is tank infantry teams.

    Or

    8 Panther or 8 Tiger instead of 12 Pz IV

    -1 Mot. platoon with the Panthers, -1 schreck

    Only a half company with heavier armor at this point level, so 1-2 platoons of infantry do not have tanks. They can lead or act as a reserve etc.

    2000 Point Panzer Forces

    12 Pz IV

    4 SS Mot. Pz Gdr Platoon (2 veteran or +2 vet schreck)

    Or

    10 Jagdpanzer IV

    5 SS Mot. Pz Gdr Platoon

    3 Schreck

    1 81mm FO (use for smoke)

    Or

    8 Tiger I

    4 SS Mot. Pz Gdr Platoon

    2 Schreck

    Everything goes but tank infantry teams, in half company armor strength or greater, with 2-3 AFVs per infantry platoon. You can trade in one tank for 1 artillery module if you feel you must have some indirect fire support. Spend leftovers on schrecks.

    Panzer Grenadier Forces

    For the pure mechanized force type, no tanks, you can realistically go with an armored recon force or with a panzergrenadier force. The Pz Gdr fight a bit better in CM, because of greater staying power. But either can be fun to try.

    1500 point armored recce force, mech

    armored car platoon, 8 rad 20mm type

    armored aufklarung platoon (7 SPW 250/1)

    aufklarung company, 4 HMG, 2 81mm type

    flakwagen, quad 20mm type

    2 75mm leIG, towed

    105mm radio FO

    fighter bomber (e.g. Me-109 F)

    The SPWs and ACs between them can lift all the heavy weapons, company and weapons HQ, and FO.

    Scout with the infantry on foot, hose anything you find with vehicle MGs and the heavy weapons. You have to use the dismounted heavy weapons (mortars, FO, HMGs) to deal with anything dangerous to the light armor. The armored cars can withstand ATR fire if they keep front facing. Close assault enemies only after they are suppressed.

    The whole force is high firepower but has little "wind" (limited ammo, not a lot of infantry depth). But against an enemy with only infantry, or with vehicles limited to trucks and a few MG only armored cars, they can be effective.

    1500 point panzergrenadier force, mech

    Vet panzer grenadier company, 4 HMG type

    Vet armored pz gdr platoon (1 37mm, 3 MG SPWs)

    2 more Vet pz gdr platoon (6 all told)

    2 SPW 251/9 (your "leIG"s are mounted)

    2 SPW 251/2 (so are your 81mms)

    105mm radio FO

    Compared to the previous, you have about twice the infantry depth, but only half as many light armored vehicles.

    The SPWs carry the HMGs, FO, and weapons and another HQ. 2 of those SPWs with 2 HMGs and an HQ aboard, which spots for a 251/2, plus a 251/9 for keyholed direct fire, form a heavy weapons grouping. One of them has a 37mm too and the other has the FO aboard.

    Use one of the line platoon HQs as the second weapons group leader, not the company HQ. The company HQ is too valuable for that. Give it all of that platoon'squads and send it with the main body. Scout with a wave of half squads from two platoons, find a point you want to attack.

    Position your heavy weapons to take down enemies located that way, one or two at a time, using the exact right weapon - mortar vs. gun, 75mm vs. MG in a house, FO vs. full platoon in woods, etc. HMGs keep suppressed anyone the heavy stuff hurts. They and the vehicle MGs also try to isolate each bit of cover with crossing LOS lines, preventing side to side repositioning.

    When you've pried enough of a way forward, follow the scouts somewhere with the bulk of the remaining infantry, the company HQ in the middle of the force. Overwhelm whatever they hit. Bring up HMGs and 'tracks and use them to split off other areas of cover. Screen one way and throw your weight the other.

    If you have combined arms rather than mech force type, you can use a similar force, but with 5 regular or 4 veteran platoons. Then add a StuG platoon (gamey effective), or a pair of Pz IVs (much more realistic), or a Tiger and a StuH. You don't need 251/9s, the tanks replace them as direct HE chuckers. You do still want 251/2s, or dismounted 81mm mortars.

    But that is less armor than they really fought with. To get the right amount you really want an armored force type.

    Infantry Forces

    Combined Arms Attack or Meeting Engagement

    3000 Point Infantry Forces

    1943 Kursk era

    StuG - PAK - Flak

    Regular Jager Battalion

    2 StuG III early-mid

    1 StuH

    2 105mm FO

    3 81mm on map (plus the FO from battalion)

    2 75mm PAK 40

    2 Quad 20mm Flak

    2 panzerschreck

    1 kubelwagen (moves 2 75mm leIG from battalion

    2 Sdkfz (move PAK and FLAK)

    FW-190 air support

    -or-

    drop air support, increase on map 81s to 6, make the FLAK SP as 7/1 Flakwagens

    -or-

    no StuH, StuG platoon of 3 instead, add 3rd Schreck (anticipating more enemy armor).

    Marders and HE

    Jager battalion

    4 Marder III early (platoon)

    2 Grille (sIG 33 model, 50mm front)

    +4 75mm leIG makes 6 all told

    6 on map 81mm

    2 105mm FOs

    1 37mm FLAK, towed

    1 Sdkfz

    2 kubelwagens

    StuG - PAK - Shreck (tank killing)

    Jager Battalion

    3 StuG early mid

    3 75mm PAK

    3 Panzerschreck

    2 105mm FO

    3 81mm on map

    3 Sdkfz

    Ju-87 tank buster air support

    1 7/2 37mm Flakwagen

    Vets and sIGs

    Veteran infantry battalion (*not* Jager)

    Vet StuG platoon

    2 Vet sIG 150mm

    6 Vet 81mm on map

    3 Vet panzerschreck

    2 Vet 105mm FO

    1 Vet Flakwagen, 7/1 or 7/2

    1 Vet Sdkfz to move sIGs

    Kursk Special Assault Group (north, AG center)

    Veteran infantry battalion

    crack pioneer platoon

    regular Brummbar

    regular Elephant or 2 regular StuG III early-mid

    2 105mm vet radio FOs + 3 vet 81mm on map -or-

    1 150mm vet radio FO + 6 vet 81mm on map

    Round out with schrecks etc.

    In any event, 36 squads and 18 HMGs for the infantry part of the force, in many cases with 6-8 small pioneer teams added, FTs and schrecks etc.

    A StuG or Marder platoon usually forms the basic armor support, with occasionally other HE chucker assault guns - and in the special case of Kursk, very thick ones. Vehicles are limited to prime movers and a few SP Flak vehicles. Towed guns can be awesome and the support category is typically maxed out. Supporting artillery is reasonably responsive and middling caliber, and is liberally supplemented by 81mm mortars.

    1944

    10 StuG IV

    Infantry battalion

    12 schreck

    3 105mm FO

    Or

    9 StuG IV

    VG Battalion

    Security Company

    6 Schreck

    3 105mm FO

    A full StuG company supporting a full infantry battalion or more. You will need decent artillery support and infantry AT to suppliment the firepower of the StuGs. Fix the enemy with one company supported by 2-3 StuGs and your limited heavy weapons, and then attack on a 2-3 platoon frontage in depth with the main body on the other wing. Fire the artillery, massed, ahead of the main attack. Do not try anything too fancy on the maneuver and exploitation side, as your infantry may not be robust enough under fire to manage it. Just execute a wing attack, meaning break the enemy's left or right half of the field, while merely screening the remainder in front.

    2000 Point Infantry Forces

    6 StuG III

    3 StuH

    3 VG Company

    5 Schreck

    2 105mm FO (or 120mm)

    Again a company of armor but less capable types, and again with a full battalion's worth of infantry, and some sort of artillery support. The basic method of attack is as described earlier for infantry. Scout and fix with the VG rifles and one StuG platoon, fire the artillery ahead of the main attack, then hit them with everything else on a narrow front.

    The basic pattern for the dug in ones would be a company of infantry plus HMG platoon, PAK, 105mm FOs, and field fortifications. They'd have trenches, AT mines, and wire. Then they'd get support from a small reserve. For the non-dug in ones, you'd have 2 companies and wouldn't have the fortifications, and the armor support forms might be marginally more likely.

    As for the PAK portion, there were plenty of 50mm PAK still around, and even a fair number of 37mms at the time of Kursk. Understand that German IDs had their PAK in two distinct places - the divisional Panzerjaeger battalion, which had up to date pieces, and the PAK companies of each infantry regiment, which tended to get the cast offs and stuff a year old. Individual IDs also transitioned from old patterns to new at different times, and scraped by in the meantime with ad hoc methods. The variety is large and few conform complelely to any of the various TOEs.

    In the fall of 1943, the ideal pattern was for the divisional Pz Jgrs to have 2 companies of PAK 40 each with 12 pieces, with the 3rd company equipped with light Flak. The regimental companies would have, typically, 9 50mm PAK each (using platoons of 3 rather than 4). (Sometimes the 1st platoon in each regiment's company had "French 75s", the Pak 97/38). Good IDs had that or some approximation to it.

    Some though had older weapon mixes, and might have only a handful of PAK 40s, PAK 76 ®, and 97/38, sometimes only enough for one company of the Pz Jgr battalion to have such pieces. The rest of the Pz Jgrs had 50mm PAK, and there were still 37s in the regiments, only the first platoons having 50mm.

    E.g. the weakest ID at Kursk had 7 PAK 40 and 3 PAK 97/38 ® in its entire Pz Jgr battalion (organized as lead batteries in each company), and 12 50mm PAK in the regiments (again 1st battery in each company), plus 27 of the old 37mms (12 in the regiments and 15 in the Pz Jgrs). It was simply still in the transition from old uniform 37s as in 1941.

    By later in the fall, more of the divisions would have transitioned to 2 strong companies in the Pz Jgrs and 50mms in the regiments.

    It was rare at this stage for the IDs to have Marders. That became much more common in 1944, with the 1st company of each divisional Pz Jgr battalion typically getting those, while the regimental companies transitioned to one battery of PAK 40s and loads of panzerschrecks for the remaining platoons. That kept the towed PAK about the same in each division, and dropped the 50s for schrecks. Sometimes you'd still see the 50s in the regimental companies, though, even late. In 1944, the best units had a StuG company in place of Marders, as the 1st company of the Pz Jgr regiment.

    Mostly, IDs saw StuGs in the form of independent StuG brigades assigned to army or corps, and then run around from hot-spot to hot-spot as linebackers. A corps or division directly in the path of a major offensive might see a StuG brigade on day two.

    On a fight of the scale you are talking about, that would translate to a single StuG, to one StuG platoon, and typically arriving as reinforcements after the attack was well underway, rather than in position at the start.

    The few divisions that had organic Marders in their Pz Jgr battalions would do the same thing locally with their own, which would translate into pairs or platoons of those doing the same thing. Higher StuG support was somewhat more common, however. It just came later in the course on an offensive.

    One other thing about front line guns and PAK schemes. The Germans were perfectly willing to incorporate their divisional artillery into their AT defenses, and particularly so in the IDs with weaker, older PAK. It was perfectly normal for a regimental KG to have a battalion of 105s permanently attached, and to form its strongpoints at the MLR or regimental reserve line, around either the whole thing or the separate batteries. In CM terms, sometimes the on map guns will be 4 105mm howitzers with 6-12 HC each, rather than heavy PAK.

    There were also modest numbers of leIG and light Flak incorporated directly into the defensive strongpoints. The scarcer and much more valuable sIG would typically be firing indirect when on defense. (Sometimes those were replaced by 120mm mortars, anyway, or were simply missing altogether).

    So some examples -

    dug in

    infantry company (regulars, standard grenadiers)

    +4 HMG 42 (six all told)

    2 MG log bunkers

    1 schreck, 2 tank hunter

    2 PAK 40

    1 20mm Quad Flak

    veteran or crack sharpshooter

    1 105mm line FO

    2-3 TRPs

    8-12 trenches

    6-10 AT mines

    20-24 wire

    plus reaction reserve -

    veteran jager platoon with veteran schreck

    veteran 105mm radio FO

    a variant with weaker PAK but a StuG reinforcement would be -

    1 76mm® capture Russian heavy PAK

    2 50mm PAK

    1 75mm le IG with 6-12 HC

    add 1 veteran StuG III (middle) to reaction reserve.

    For attack odds, the 2nd 105mm FO can be a line FO and start on the map, TRPs can go to 4, and a 4th infantry platoon can start on map, making the reserve a 5th.

    Without fortifications, less prepared. These forces should still have some form of defensible terrain, not just open steppe. A village would be a common case. Woods or a rocky hill would also serve.

    2 infantry companies

    +4 HMGs makes 8 total

    4 81mm on map

    2 105mm FO (line)

    2 schreck, 4 tank hunter

    2 PAK 40

    1 quad 20 AA or 2 20mm single or 1 le IG

    Marder support variant, add 2 Marder III early as reinforcements. PAK might be 1 PAK 40 and 2 50mm PAK38.

    Div arty variant. Drop 1 105mm FO, replace with 4 on map 105mm howitzer, each with 6-12 HC. PAK limited to 2 50mm PAK, no heavy. 3 schrecks and 5 THs.

    The defense scheme is to emplace HMGs alone or in pairs, in natural or trench cover, with long LOS over open approaches. Spotters for 81mm on map and the 105mm FOs and TRPs are sighted at the bodies of cover between these open stretches. Together those provide a stealthy anti-infantry ranged fire defense extending out to 500 yards or more. The 81s also have the mission of KOing any enemy guns overwatching and firing direct etc.

    The PAK are in cover or entrenched and cross their fire ahead of the MG positions. 50mms in particular need to go on the extreme flanks to ensure high crossing angle. 75 PAK can be more centrally located and farther to the rear.

    Infantry platoon positions are interspersed with the HMG positions, but are in reserve slope or back positions when possible. They include schrecks and THs for anti-armor ambush, but their main role is to deny bodies of cover to the enemy infantry by their physical presence, and short range fire into the open immediately in front of them.

    The reaction reserves are to shore up the weakest part of the line by just taking a defensive position behind anything broken and taken before they arrive. If the conditions are favorable, a 105mm strike is put down on the leading enemy body of cover, and the reserve platoon - perhaps with the nearest already present, perhaps not - rushes the place behind the barrage, as a local counterattack.

    Reserve armor if available hunts enemy armor after it arrives, and plugs holes in the AT net created by loss of a heavy PAK.

    When to unmask the heavy PAK is a key decision in this sort of defense. They start off on short vehicle arcs, biding their time. They need a very good target to reveal themselves. They do not open fire just because an enemy tank is firing at something. Infantry hit by tank fire has to solve the immediate problem itself by skulking to dead ground.

    AT minefields, hiding tank hunters, and schrecks with limited ~150m LOS (to avoid enemy overwatch), try to whittle down the enemy tanks before the PAK show themselves. And to contain them if or when the PAK are lost.

    The other key decision is when and where to use the artillery fire. It should not be wasted early at long range. Instead it should wait for the fattest targets of whole companies stuffed into limited bodies of cover, to shelter from MG fire and form up to assault a German infantry position, etc.

    The squad infantry should be spending most of the time hiding, not firing. It opens only to KO infantry closely approaching their own positions. Once they beat the first such approach, they remain up and firing (but are expected to be shredded by enemy fire) or they relocate to an alternate firing position, by a covered rear exit.

    A note on Marders for IDs and the reason for the 1944 date. Marders were around in 1942 and common in 1943. But they were valuable enough at those times they were mostly found in the mobile divisions, in their Panzerjaeger battalions. Typically 1st company in each. What changes in 1944 is the improved Pz Jgr vehicles appear, the Jadgpanzer in particular. StuGs also became much more numerous when the turreted Pz IIIs were discontinued in mid 1943, and those also replaced Marders in the Panzer divisions.

    The cast off Marders were all given to the IDs, at that point. Later in mid 1944, the PDs pretty much all had Jadgs, and the IDs started to get StuGs in the first companies of their Pz Jgr battalions.

    PD Pz Jgrs, ID Pz Jgr 1st companies, rest of ID Pz Jgrs, and ID regimental companies, in turn got the better weapons and handed the last variety on to the next. That is a pattern that left 50mm PAK in the hands of the regimental PAK companies toward the end of the war. Some still had them at the end. The other very late war development was from the other end - as schrecks and better fausts became available in large numbers, they equipped the 2nd and 3rd platoons of the regimental ID PAK companies. In the VG pattern IDs they replaced the towed PAK entirely at the regimental company level - those became pure infantry AT formations.

    Avoid the "early mid" variety with 30+50 armor, because it is overmodeled and unrealistic. The "mid" variety with single 80mm is OK. (Still overmodeled, but as long as you don't use to many of them etc).

    How to use the Panzer forces

    They all have in common using armor in company or at least half-company strength. (Combat AARs often show half company armor forces, often due to depletion of the parent unit). Tank infantry teams in a ratio of 1-2 AFVs per infantry platoon as the core of the force. A focus on winning the armor war, and then having enough ordinary squad infantry depth to overpower limited portions of the enemy force. Narrow fronts for the attacks help bring that about at first. Armor war victory brings it about later on, as surviving uncontested AFVs prevent portions of the enemy force from maneuvering to aid each other. Artillery limited in amount, and what there is used in focused, large missions tied to the maneuver plan, not dissecting the enemy position with a scalpel. Reasonable artillery support when the infantry arm is expected to attack.

    With much smaller forces, let alone the point limits of combined arms force types, you can't realistically fight the way the Germans attacked. You need an armor force type, or unrestricted, and a large enough fight for AFVs to be on the field in at last half-company strength. You will only see the sense of it at the right scale.

    When only a few tanks are present, they do not dominate areas the way they can when massed. When you are down to one tank platoon, it can do so if you keep it united, but that devolves into a straight firepower attack by that platoon. That is too tactical for the maneuver aspect - by which I mean the ability to fight only parts of the enemy force due to local or global armor war victory - to show up.

    Note that none of the above are meant to be gamey optima in CM. They are realistic and they can show why the methods worked. Players often throw in a grab bag of items, dissipate their points over a half dozen vehicle types, etc. Way too complicated and unnecessary. 1-2 AFV types will serve, but massed, and the squad infantry is more important (on the attack, mind) than the twiddles of this or that foot team or gun.

    Did the Germans learn much between 1942/1944? It appears that they persisted with "schwerpunkt" tactics, incredibly effective against fragile opposition, but by mid 1942 or so it seems that the Allies had mostly learnt to deal with it. The Germans then just try to do the same with thicker armour & bigger guns...

    They managed to get the initial break-in easily enough, even against later Allied defenses. The problems they encountered typically had to do with breakdown of combined arms when infantry got stripped off the tanks by artillery, or getting lost in a deep defended zone and hunted by reserves while buttoned, or having roads cut, mined, bridges blown, etc.

    Sometimes they attack well prepared all arms defenses and just get their tanks shot out from under them. Thick front plates probably protected them from a lot of mistakes. Close terrain, poor visibility, etc, often evened the armor quality odds and then they generally did poorly when attacking.

    But it is not like such techniques got them killed at the start line (at 17-pdr PAK fronts or otherwise - there weren't any, really). On the contrary, they virtually always made it through the front line. Just attacking on a narrow enough frontage with tactically serious amounts of armor can bring that much about. ATGs tend to be in penny packets, battery strength at most, all along the line, and are relatively easy to suppress or knock out.

    Early in the war achieving an initial break-in was a more important thing to achieve, because the defenders against it mostly didn't know what to do about it. Early war Allied defenders did try armored counterattacks, but usually poorly coordinated ones with limited (if any) all-arms support.

    German infantry coming through the breach in depth stopped those easily enough and turned a crack into a big tear. That didn't happen later on in many cases, because the Allies could "countermass" with artillery fire on the narrow breakthrough areas. Allied fire support and fire responsiveness increased drastically from early war to late. The German infantry could not shoulder through the holes to widen them. Once the tanks were stripped, they were hunted rather than hunters.

    The only real counter to that the Germans had was scale, and operational surprise. If the attack was wide enough, the Allies couldn't mass fires everywhere to stop them. The Germans developed the idea that a whole panzer corps was the minimum force to launch a serious breakthrough fight, and two working together was considered much more sound.

    They could also try to mass their own artillery beforehand and bring enough infantry depth to the attempt. They rarely were "rich" on the latter score after 1941, however, as the length of the front exploded and forces were needed to really hold them, not just screen them. If you look at early war operations, the infantry is in deep column behind the attack. In later war ones, everybody has frontage and too much of it.

    Peiper and the attempt to take Bastogne both failed primarily due to not enough infantry with the lead units. By the end Peiper faced 10 to 1 infantry odds. In the attack on Bastogne by an entire corps, the guys inside the perimeter had as many infantry battalions as the attackers, and they were fresher. The break ins were one thing and there the doctrine worked well. Making something of, and sustaining a penetration was a taller order, and needed overall odds.

    How to use the infantry forces

    As for how you use them, I suppose the German infantry fighting system may not be self explanatory.

    First, form heavy weapons groups alongside infantry platoons, each built around a few HMGs and an HQ, with some other weapon added - an 81mm on map, an FO, a towed gun, whatever. Group together pairs of each around a higher level HQ, to give tasking flexibility etc.

    Regular infantry scouts routes for the heavy weapons groups, who "own" cover with LOS and extend a network of LOS lines outward to medium range.

    First job is scouts out to find the enemy and especially his armor. All regular platoons, with the rest of their groups trailing. Just eyes forward and taking possession of bits of cover, is the idea, no serious fighting against anything more than enemy scouts etc.

    As the enemy is found the leading regular infantry goes stationary, holds off men crossing open, only, otherwise skulks away from anything with real firepower. Weapons groups close up, set up. They want their LOS lines to cut the terrain side to side and slice off forward bits with crossing LOS lines behind them etc. Just restrict easy enemy movement and hold the stuff you reached, against open ground crossings.

    Now draw trump - in other words, win the armor war. Your armor, PAK, and schrecks have all been hanging back so far. You've seen enemy armor here or there. Now you hunt it. You have weapons that will kill anything they can see. See, kill, repeat. When the enemy armor is dead or contained, proceed to the next phase, but not before.

    Next phase is to probe the foremost, cut off bits of cover, with a few scouts. If there are real enemies there, you then bring up the appropriate heavy tool and murder them. While HMGs cut the lines of retreat etc. Regular platoons follow up into already beaten opponents, they do not need to KO them alone. Don't fight the whole enemy force, fight the pieces of it that seem most vulnerable, hardest to support or to withdraw, etc.

    The special heavier weapons all work by keyholing, to avoid reply fire. In the case of the 81s on map and the 105 FOs, obviously indirect does the same job. With the thick front armor, similarly - with sides covered by terrain etc, and no advancing farther than needed to get LOS. If they aren't well within your own infantry positions you are doing it wrong.

    No Russian vehicles can stand under long 75mm fire, or schreck fire even. No Russian infantry can make serious progress across open areas that numerous HMG42s are interdicting. No Russian infantry can survive in woods plastered by 105mm indirect or buildings plastered by 75mm direct, or anything plastered by 150mm anything. No Russian guns can survive long under 81mm mortar fire, to which they cannot reply.

    In the infantry firefight, the gun line is 150-250 meters from the enemy and the heavy lifting is done by all the HMGs and on map guns. Infantry can help in occasional "mad minutes", firing by whole platoons to break single enemies. Then they advance. When fire stops them, do not press, do not race, just call fire on the shooters and repeat.

    Plenty varies with era, attacking or defending, mission and terrain. And there are all sorts of purely optional variants in terms of what guns to take and other forms of support. But here is some for the Kursk era, ID parent combined arms, attacking or ME portion of the question -

    I hope this helps.

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    New player: Need some help

    in Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin

    Posted

    How to Attack like a Soviet Rifle Corps in 1944

    This is a historical discussion based on the Iasi-Kischinjow Operation. It didn't evolve into a set of recommendations on purchasing units for larger attacks and MEs and how to use them for that "historically-informed" feel... well CMBB hadn't come out yet! Then that topic area got reserved for CMBO and that thread dropped down into the depths...

    Anyway, here's the questions:

    1) Given 2000, 3000, or 5000 points... what would be reasonable forces to put together as a Russian player given various conditions (division type, time period, etc.)?

    2) How would they have employed those forces within the scope of a CMBB battle?

    Go green. Then in 1942 2,000 points should buy you a somewhat depleted motorised battalion, which comes with an 81mm FOO. Fill in the rest with 2 platoons of T34, one of Valentines, some assorted guns (45mm, 76mm ZIS-3 and 76mm m1927, 25mm AA) and you are laughing all the way to the VL. The Valentine MG ammo is good enough to deal with a lot of infantry even if there is no HE for the 2-pdr gun. The T34s come with tons of cannister.

    All the guns are good to kill anything the Germans field from the flank, and since you have a total of 10-15 tank killers on the battlefield, chances are there will be opportunities for flank shots.

    The Russians have two basic ways of attacking - the Mech way and the Infantry way. To do the former you really want a Mech division type and and armor force type. For the latter, a Infantry division type and combined arms force type works best. You can do them with combined arms Mech, or infantry force Infantry division, but those aren't as effective. (And the last better be facing no armor).

    The Mech way is to take regular quality, and spend 1/2 to 2/3 of the point budget on armor. Very small amounts on arty (though air support, a cheap strafing type e.g., is fine if available for reasonable rarity). Modest amounts of infantry, often with SMGs, or mixed special types.

    E.g. in mid 1943 6 T-70s, 12 T-34s, 2 SMG companies, 1 120mm FO. Or in a large point total fight, 18 T-34s, a motor rifle battalion, 2 on map 82mms, 3 120mm FOs. Or from that base, drop 1 120 FO and add a pioneer platoon. Or drop a 120 FO and 3 T-34s, add 5 T-70s and a pioneer company.

    In 1943, the tanks can include 5 or 10 T-70s (or none if you take 18-21 T-34s), plus at least 9 T-34s. 1-2 platoons of SUs if you prefer those to T-70s.

    How does the mech force type fight? A few overwatch groups can be formed around company HQs from rifle company HMGs, ATRs, single on map 82s, and FOs. They help deal with guns and HMGs in cases where the location makes it dangerous for tanks. Radio equipped T-70s scout behind a foot half squad "point". Pioneers in small groups clear AT mines the T-70s "discover".

    The basic fighting approach, though, is small numbers of infantry scouting for numerous tanks, which shoot the heck out of anything run across. Then SMG infantry wades in and murders cowering survivors. The modest but reactive 120 FO support deals with blocks of woods too large for the tanks to see inside, when those can't just be bypassed. The main idea is to systematically kill the defenders along chosen approach routes with tank HE, with infantry taking a subordinate role (scouting, protecting from close assault, mopping up).

    The other way of attacking, using an infantry division type and only combined arms levels of armor support, works best with "low" quality and relies on artillery prep fire and infantry depth.

    Which arty to use depends heavily on the random rarity roll. But the basic idea is to take the cheapest large caliber (122mm and up) module available, as conscripts, and to max out the arty point budget with those. You can leave room for one reactive mortar FO, taken as greens - the 9x82mm that comes with a battalion, or 120mm - to have some reactive indirect fire support. Then the conscript heavies use a fire plan set up on turn 1, and the infantry advances conform to that plan.

    At least 40% and typically more like 50% of the points should be spent on just infantry, with another 10-20% on support items, and arty more or less maxed out at 25%. As greens, this means even a 2000 point budget should include on the order of 500 men.

    The basic idea is to reduce the defending infantry with the arty fire, not efficiently but on a large scale, and then to absorb the limited ammo of the surviving defenders with your own infantry depth, rally through that fire, and overwhelm the remaining defenders late in the fight.

    Because the FOs are inflexible and the infantry is brittle and short ranged, however, you need other weapons to carry the fight in the early and middle stages. Ranged ones. 1-2 platoons of T-34s and a number of towed guns are the main answer there. Infantry overwatch groups are the other half, with light mortars, HMGs, etc.

    E.g. I rolled one random rarity set that happened to give division 122s at +0 rarity, making them81 points apiece as conscripts. Flame T-34s happened to be 0 rarity too. I took 1 T-70 (a scout tank), 1 platoon of OT-34s, 6 conscript 122 FOs, 2 rifle companies, 1 SMG company, 1 pioneer company, and 2 76mm infantry guns.

    The overwatch groups would be 2xHMG, 2x50mm mortar, 1x76mm towed IG. The 122s would fire 2-3 at a time at covered areas the infantry planned to take. The flame T34s and SMGs would act as the main assault group. Each company, plus the SMGs, would have 2 pioneer squads with an HQ attached.

    Notice that the infantry way of fighting has the armor war conducted on a shoestring. It works best against an infantry type defender, or a combined arms one with an infantry division type - which limits the defense to at most a couple AFVs. The arty focus is meant to deplete an infantry and team based defense.

    If you expect more armor for the defender, you may want to take a few AT capable towed guns - long 76s, or even 57mm ATGs if their rarity is livable (particularly in the Tiger era).

    The tanks and the bulk of the infantry should be green, not conscript. The same goes for teams and any reactive mortar FOs. Only use "conscript" for the heavy FOs, the ones that plan to use map fire. It just makes that cheaper; the shells will still be fully effective.

    You can try the infantry way using just infantry numbers in place of most of the heavy arty. If you have limited cover it won't work very well, though, because you won't have spots for all the men and just bunching up jacks up your own losses during the approach.

    The tricky part tends to be anticipating the right objective lines to bombard when, and then getting the infantry to move instead of pin, to stay with the plan. Expect the first 5 minutes to be spent just creeping forward and dealing with initial LOS defenders, using your ranged weapons.

    Minutes 5-15 tend to be the "approach fight", where the defenders do most of the shooting but you manage to get some infantry into cover close enough for full IDs. You want some planned arty falling then, on the foremost objectives.

    Don't save your pre-planned arty for very late in the day, or the fight will be won or lost before it lands. You want spots where defenders will be, above all, but otherwise forward edge ones rather than back ones. Don't be afraid to use a wide sheaf with 2-3 FOs firing at the same location, to be sure some defenders will be under a thick enough the barrage.

    After that period, the defense tends to soften. Early shooters have been IDed and silences, the arty has reduced the defense already, ammo constraints make it hard for the remaining defenders to keep up the volume of fire. Your infantry should rally and "lift" as the defense fire slackens, accumulating in cover areas clustered along the defender's original set up limit. Before the half hour mark you should have enough firepower up front and enough of an ammo advantage to outshoot the remaining defenders.

    The first sort of attack will fail if you lose half of your tanks without smashing the defending AT network. The second sort of attack can fail if the arty misses completely or you push the infantry too hard too fast, breaking it beyond its ability to rally, against an intact defense.

    You also need enough ranged heavy weapons stuff in the second type to keep your infantry from just getting pinned by HMGs and light guns too close to the start line for too long, "losing" the barrage. Then the defenders have time to recover from it before your own guys get close, remaining HMGs prevent your whole force getting forward, etc.

    The solution to that problem is just having enough in the way of tanks, guns, on map mortars, etc to deal with enemy MGs and guns as they appear, within a few minutes for each. What makes it hard anyway is failure to get full IDs because you are still too far away. A single tank pushed forward can help, or a foremost infantry platoon on a covered route getting close enough for IDs.

    That covers how to attack like a Russian. I hope it helps.

    Funnily enough, this is actually CM size, at least when you look at the map size.

    Iasi-Kischinjow Operation, August 1944 (Kischinjow would probably be called Kischinew in German unit histories)

    Operations of 3rd Ukrainian Front (GOC General Tolbuchin)

    Main effort of the front is in the sector of the 37th Army (GOC Lieutenant General Scharochin). Main effort of 37th Army is 66th Rifle Corps and 6th Guards Rifle Corps. The 37th Army has a 4km wide breakthrough frontage assigned to it. It is divided in two groupings, two corps up, one corps reserve. According to plan, it is supposed to break through the depth of the German/Romanian defense in 7 days, to a distance of 110-120km, with the distance to be covered in the first four days 15km each.

    66th Rifle Corps (GOC Major General Kuprijanow) consisting of two groupings (61st Guards RD, 333rd RD up, 244th RD reserve). Attached are 46th Gun Artillery Brigade, 152nd Howitzer Artillery Regiment, 184th and 1245th Tank Destroyer Regiment, 10th Mortar Regiment, 26th Light Artillery Brigade, 87th Recoilless Mortar Regiment, 92nd and 52nd Tank Regiment, 398th Assault Gun Regiment, two Pioneer Assault Battalions, and two Light Flamethrower Companies.

    Corps frontage 4km

    Corps breakthrough frontage 3.5km (61st RD 1.5km, 333rd RD 2km)

    Densities per kilometer of frontage:

    Rifle battalions 7.7

    Guns/mortars 248

    Tanks and assault guns 18

    Superiority

    Infantry 1:3

    Artillery 1:7

    Tanks and assault guns 1:11.2

    There is no man-power information for the divisions, but expect them to have between 7,000 - 7,500 men each, 61st GRD maybe 8,000-9,000. The soldiers were prepared over the course of August by exercising in areas similar to those they had to attack, and being brought up to speed on special tactics needed to overcome the enemy in their sector.

    Density in 61st GRD sector per kilometer of frontage:

    Rifle battalions 6.0

    Guns/mortars 234

    Tanks and assault guns 18

    Density in 333rd RD sector per kilometer of frontage:

    Rifle battalions 4.5

    Guns/mortars 231

    Tanks and assault guns 18

    The initial attack

    333rd RD did not bother with niceties like reserves and put three regiments up. 61st GRD attacked in classic two regiment up, one reserve formation. This proved to be lucky, since its right wing of 188th Guards(?) Rifle Regiment got stuck in front of the strongpoint Ploptuschbej. 189th Rifle Regiment on the left wing made good progress though, as did 333rd RD on its left. The GOC 61st GRD therefore inserted his reserve (187th GRR) behind 189th RR and off they went. When darkness came, 244th RD was inserted to break through the second line of defense. It lost its way though, and only arrived at 2300, by which time elements of 13th Panzer were counterattacking.

    The German/Romanian opposition was XXX. and XXIX. AK, with 15th, 306th German ID, 4th Romanian Mountain Division, and 21st Romanian ID. 13th PD was in reserve. At the end of day one, 4th Romanian Mountain, and 21st Romanian Divisions were almost completely destroyed, while 15th and 306th ID were heavily damaged (according to a German source: 306th lost 50% in the barrage, and was destroyed apart from local strongpoints by evening). Almost no artillery survived the fire preparation.

    13th Panzer counter-attacked 66th Rifle Corps on day one, and tried to stop it on day two but to no avail. A study on the divisions history says 'The Russian dictated the course of events.' 13th Panzer at the time was a materially understrength, but high manpower unit, with a high proportion of recent reinforcements. It only had Panzer IV, Stugs and SP AT guns. The division was at the end of the second day in a condition that it was incapable to attack or of meaningful resistance.

    At the end of day two, the Red Army stood deep in the rear of German 6th Army. No more organised re-supply of forces would be forthcoming, and 6th Army was doomed to be encircled and chopped up. Franz-Josef Strauss, who was to become a very important German politician after the war, served with the Panzerregiment of 13th Panzer. He comments that the division had ceased to exist as a tactical unit on day three of the Soviet offensive: 'The enemy was everywhere.'

    The comment on the result of 66th Rifle Corps operations in Mazulenko is: 'Because of the reinforcement of the Corps and the deep battle arrangements of troops and units the enemy defenses were broken through at high speed.'

    This post is based on two German language sources, one being Mazulenko, 'The destruction of AG South Ukraine', and the other Hoffmann, 'Die Magdeburger Division', a history of 13th Panzer.

    This is what the Red Army saw as a late war set-piece attack. It is a relentless meat-grinder, that was protected by Maskirovka, full control of the air, and prepared with almost scientific rigour. This kind of stuff made Blitzkrieg look like Kindergarten.

    Almost exactly after a month the Red Army had destroyed AG South Ukraine completely. On the 6th September it had reached the Jugoslavian border at Turnu-Severin, on the 16th September it stood in Sofia, on the 19th it had reached the Hungarian border at Arad. Before that, on the 17th the old lands of the Danube Swabians at Temeschwar (Timisoara) were occupied.

    I posted this because I thought some people maybe interested in this rather 'secondary' theatre, and also because it is one of the few accounts I have come across that details almost down to battalion level for some aspects the organisation and preparation for a Soviet offensive of this scale.

    Originally posted by Von Paulus:

    Are you sure that Russian batallions were at full strenght ?

    But an attack of this type is totally possible and historically true ofr the Soviet side.

    Yup, Germans were often outnumbered.

    Paulus

    ________________________________________

    Err, this is an historical attack, please read the info on the sources again.

    And no, they were not full strength. The divisions were (as I said) at far below strength, it is therefore logical to assume that their consituent parts were below strength too. The authorised strength was ~9,200 men based on the 1943 shtat. These divisions are at about 80% of that.

    One way to deal with that was to lose specialist personnel. Interestingly, according to Zaloga in order to reach 8,000 men division in October 1944, 3rd Ukrainian Front (the front undertaking this operation) ordered a specialist TO&E under which each rifle platoon would lose a squad. So the rifle battalions here would have about 2/3 TO&E strength. Assume a bit more for 61st GRD, since Guards divisions seem to have received more reinforcements.

    Still, at 4.5 rifle battalions to a km, and 2/3 strength, you are effectively putting 3 full-strength rifle battalions in there per km. Open a CMBO map and have a look at what that looks like.

    The Germans were heavily outnumbered at this point (as they were at many other points). But this did not happen because of some accident, or because the Germans overlooked something. It was the result of successful planning, Maskirovka that led to the Germans expecting the attack elsewhere or not at all, and consequent superior concentration of overwhelming force in a narrow breakthrough sector. Once resistance there was smashed, rapid movement would bring about the complete disintegration of the German rear areas as well as troop command and control.

    If some of you are looking for the document from which the above tactical and organisational diagrams are taken what you are after is Handbook on USSR Military Forces, TM30-430, November 1945. The chapter on tactics is available from The Nafziger Collection, is part of the same series of books that are available from BTS themselves. The entire Handbook is “very rare” and I am very fortunate to have copy, however, there must be others out there.

    Do a search using google.com and you will certainly find the chapter on Soviet tactics is commercially available.

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