[Retreating/Escaping from Artillery]

And this drill is being used and rehearsed quite frequently, which shows it's importance in real combat situations.

I doubt that this is much different in other armies.

British Army has a commonly used term of "Bug Out!!". It was even incorporated into situations where we were lightly dug in (shell scrapes). Mayby partly because we were usually in woods, and partly due to the anticipated saturation that was expected from Soviet forces.

Also it was always drilled home that after taking a position, fight through it before an anticipated final defensive shelling.

[Can we have some burgers in CMx2?]

From the way you phrase it, it sounds like they're still active and recruiting!

When I was serving in Germany there was a local scandal because a German Para Battalion celebrated Crete battle honours. :eek:

It will be interesting if the devs include special forces in a potential modern or near future hypothetical game. I've read from several sources that doctrine is moving towards empoying special forces in support roles during conventional battles. Balance would be key. I could see the potential complaining posts of "my superman SAS/Delta squad were routed by a two companies- this sucks because I'm a re-enactor and my blurring of the egde of time gives me unique insights into such things."

[ September 23, 2005, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: vincere ]

[Which features do we think WON'T be in CMx2?]

What about civilians? Do you think we'll EVER see random AI controlled civilians in the game engine? I can't imagine a Beirut or Iraq or even a Vietnam game without civilians. But BFC has expressed some resistance to the idea in the past.

There is mention in the synopsis thread that civies will be possible in CMx2

[Ways to make the game more newbie friendly...]

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> I think it would be really great if the game came with a book or .pdf file or somefink that had a description of what each command, terrain etc. could be expected to do.

It'd be great! We could call it a manual! Yeah!.

And people could read it. </pre>

[SS in game thanks SCHOERNER]

Check out the ASL mods at CMMODS if you want easy to recognize unit symbols.

Hey, the ASL Unit Portraits are really useful, thanks.

Any thougts on mod managers? Is CMOS? the way to go?

[Very unoffical "Top Five" settings.]

For the Falkland an interesting what if would be if the Argies didn't surrender at Goose Green.

From what I can remember reading an SAS fighting patrol joined the firefight and led the Argentine commander to believe there were many more Brits than there really were. Before SAS support the Para attack was grinding to a halt.

Falklands wouldn't make it in my top 5 though.

[Armor over run attacks.]

(avoiding the who spins evidence to fit their pre-conceptions charge)

I think JasonC's consequences approach the strongest and most persuasive so far. Correct if I'm mistaken but I think that what you were highlighting is that if armour routinely or even significantly ran troops and buildings over then there would probably be consequences of that, which we do not see. A little like when armoured vehicles are specialised for other roles, they tend to look different. Mine clearing tanks spring to mind but there have been other outlandish prototypes that didn't make it.

The practical limits of increasing armour on a tank mean that the front is most heaily armoured than elsewhere. Doctrine and practical employment of tanks rely on this fact. If tanks were routinely used to run over troops why was the armour on tanks never spread more evenly? Why is the underbelly of a tank one of its weakest areas?

Why invest so much on stand-off weapons in infantry support armour such as the Stug? Why didn't armoured bulldozers become the infantry support vehicle of choice?

[ September 21, 2005, 05:53 AM: Message edited by: vincere ]

[Friendly Fire?]

It's a pisser. I'm doing a capaign attack with a infantry battalion and up until the AI flanked me in a counter attack I'd killed more GIs than the the Germans had.

That sort of simulation is embarasing but Great!

By the way was the squad under friendly fire attacking or near an enemy squad?

[Friendly Fire?]

During a night assault my own 81mm mortars were about 500m off target, took out a few guys from my flanking platoon and pinned them.

Also advanced a sqaud through my mg line of fire took out about 4 guys, and assaulted a squad and my own supression fire did as much damage to the assaulting squad as the defender did.

[First Release Predictions?]

Vincere,

For the record it was not I who suggested an Iraq game to honour brothers or whaterver fighting.

Steve

Vietnam or Afghanistan hint.

[1:1 representation and casualties]

Steve

We are, however, simulating the different pieces of the weapon. Lose the guy with the baseplate and you got yourself a a guy lugging around a very heavy bong

So WIA get abstraction; and drug abuse gets squad bongs modelled.

[1:1 representation and casualties]

Micheal Dorish

But some of the polemics and derision in this post leads me to suspect that some might be posting out of concern to preserve how they personally play CMx1 rather than how the title could be moved forward.

Your clarifications have shown my suspiscion to probably be faulty reasoning. So all due retractions and apollogies.

I now see the all or nothing rationale along the lines of nothing is better than half baked poor implementation.

Also, I guess critical development time is better focussed on the core aspects of the game. Especially the potentially high impact developments of 1:1 representation and LOS stuff.

[First Release Predictions?]

steve

So if you were a 3rd world bad guy nation state... would you continue pissing money away into an armored force that is likely to be neutralized in a couple of days, an airforce that would be neutralized in a few hours...

I believe they will still buy to hammer their own insurgents and counter a threat from similar neighbours.

As for near future, when there is a unipolar power others tend to ally to counter it. Be that china/Russia or other unforseen combination, well time will tell.

[First Release Predictions?]

Yellow?

Debate and argument good. Several laps of Circular discussion is Masochist and futile like banging head against wall: reminds me of an Ex...bad.

[First Release Predictions?]

I have no doubt that they will eventually do more modern conflicts, if CM2 is a success. One of my favorite board games in the 70's was Arab-Israeli War by AH, which was basically, tank combat during the Yom Kippur war (1973). T-55's vs. M-48's. I would love to see that game get the CM treatment.

Didn't the Israelis experiment with women in combat formations. Apparently the women fought well; but when they were wounded the male soldiers were too concerned with looking after them to be combat effective. Oh no let's not go there!

[SS in game thanks SCHOERNER]

cheers, I'll check those out.

[1:1 representation and casualties]

I think Lock n Load did similar?

[1:1 representation and casualties]

Michael Dorosh: Thanks for the clarification. Comparing it with morale states has helped me see the whole hog or nothing rationale. Yes, I can definately remember many games with too many features with poor implementation. And games that appeared to loose sight of their objective.

I guess the devs and testers will see what's the optimal solution when the time comes.

[SS in game thanks SCHOERNER]

By the way i think I'm becoming a MOD slut. Got SS uniforms so I'll quickly reconise if they show up. Us infantry uniforms 'cause I'm mostly playing as them right now. And weapond pack seemed useful.

Any must haves to recommend?

Also a biggy: do they slow processing?

[First Release Predictions?]

I have mixed feelings both ways. A modern combat CM has been a dream of mine for years. But I also know that the first release will be more basic and unrefined than the later ones. I could hold off knowing that when it finally does come the modern CM would be better for having waited.

Yes! I am not alone. Modern is so under represented on wargame shelves. Modern for me is Vietnam through very near future hypotheticals.

[1:1 representation and casualties]

Michael Dorish

You've not interpreted the opposite camp completely accurately. In addition to your points, there is also the component that feels spending a lot of time modelling casualties

a) will increase development time for little gain

be rather unnecessary, since they can point to no other wargame, FPS, or simulation that models casualty treatment in any significant way

c) does not realistically represent the burden of a real life company commander, whose role the CM player assumes

a)fair point. Implementation could even hinder gampeplay and unbalance realism.

'don't do because no other game does it logic' appears false to me as it could have equally applied to aspects of CM that make CM stand out. Also Wartime Command is planning to model medics, and another wego game Alfa Anti Terror has wounded soldiers. I thought close combat traced wounded soldiers too?

c)I think CM may accurately be referred to as comany level; not so much company commander. Strictly speaking a company commander commands one, not several companies. Also much of CM is not what a company commander would get involved in.

Incidently do you happen to have an accurate timespan of what leaving wounded pixel soldiers on the map will require? How much longer than writing code to make them disappear?

[SS in game thanks SCHOERNER]

Woa, that's hardcore junk2drive. What's your experience of meta campaigns? Do many get a decent flow going? Or are there too often too many no shows?

[1:1 representation and casualties]

The impression I'm getting from some posts here is that two broad for vs agianst severe wound representation camps are emerging.

The for group, have highlighted the emersive game feel factor, and the realism of wounded impacting on the fire and movement of war and wargames. Also how odd it may be to have pixel troops disappear.

The camp against have highlighted that it'd be difficult to implement. And may screw with gameplay and flow. I've noticed a marked inconsistency in this camp. Many other threads turn on interpretations on what is historically accurate, or realistic. Not here: many appear to be rejecting that because it might affect how squads are pushed about on the map. The polemic positions of "it must either be simulated to absolute accuracy or nothing" raises my suspicion. Other posts that create a straw man of "people wanting a MASH/medic simulater" to deride contributions in this area raise suspicions further.

I should imagine that most recognise that realism must often sacrifice to gameplay. But some of the polemics and derision in this post leads me to suspect that some might be posting out of concern to preserve how they personally play CMx1 rather than how the title could be moved forward.

There have been many who have made reasonable and creative contributions to the thread, to those I am gratefull. Steve has patiently restated the postion: that movement is out, and representation undecided. Personally, I'd like to see some of the balanced suggestions implemented. eg. severe wounded left on ground much the same as KIA, and the affects of pinned units abstracting a pause for first aid.

How casualtie are dealt with in combat is in many ways an intregal part of it, hence the interest in the first post. I read somewhere that the devs aim was a complete tactical simulation. If that's true I would imagine this issue to come up again in the future.

[ September 14, 2005, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: vincere ]

[Briefings]

Totally with you on this. Some kind of map would be really useful, especially in campaign games. Also for those games where I buy units first.

It isn't like officers and NCOs wouldn't know the main features of the terrain ahead.

[SS in game thanks SCHOERNER]

Thanks, I tried WinSPMBT, but it just didn't gab me lie it had done all those years ago. One of the things I liked about it was the easy to use campaign generater.

That's some serious PBEM, Band of Brothers?