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Sombra, why haven't you authorized me yet on ICQ? Anyways, I'd like a game gainst you if you have time as well. I need a lesser opponent to beat on. Terif is too hard, and losing against him makes me feel like a beginner.

Boy, I really want to play with that bid (allies of course). If anybody's up to it, let me know. Curry, what ideas do you have for the US's extra 2k? I suggest 4 air, and at least 3 (or more) chits in jet tech. That'll even the odds in the skies over europe. That'd be 5 air for US, and 4-5 air for UK in 42-43. DDay awaits you. BTW, Zapp, we need to finish our game!!! I couldn't catch you last time, again, g/f was making problems (when don't they?).

Game over. Was good. I learned much. Wise Yoda, Jedi Master will makes Avatar-Jedi-wanna-be into Jedi Knight one day?

Russian front recovering from shock. Destroy 2 german corps next to minsk. UK/US play waiting game.

It seems Axis had to prematurely declare war on USSR one turn earlier. Britain is still recovering, and US is in in 1-2 turns. We'll see what develops

Quick Allied turns that's for sure. US/USSR still far off. Axis hoarding, but he has jets 1, and probably LR 1

September 40'. Axis' only target is greece now. Don't think he's going after it. I haven't played my best here, and I'm not sure i'll be able to defend england properly. we'll see.

Battle of France over in May. Sucks, french Hq and Army were 1 turn away from escaping... Own bordeaux and brest, but only for this turn. lost 2 corps escaping the hell in france....

Attacked Ireland Poland survives

Turn 1: Poland invaded full force. No LC Gambit allowed for allies, so no fear of turn 2 invasion. Denmark pinged.

This would certainly be more of a challenge for the Axis. Everyone is always afraid to play something different, and for 2-3 years you all play the same 1939 scenario. Yeah, fun. Oh, and realistic. Yes, invade Sweden, Spain, Vichy, Middle East, Balkans, whole Europe. No, USA/USSR don't mind at all, at least not for another year. BORING, and it's always the same cookie-cutter strategy. Terif is a master at using little corps to run around and 'block' ships from escaping, and annoying you. I hate it, I think it's childish, but we all do it. We all run to get Jet +5 and LR +4. Super AT+4 Italian troops. Malta's useless (not so with these rules). Egypt is undefendable, UNDEFENDABLE. That's ridiculous! You should have had house rules like this a looooooong time ago. Tell me, which of these rules I made is 'not fair'? None of them. It just makes it that much harder for the axis, not impossible, but harder. The axis should be in a race against time, not the allies! But that's what every axis player does, try to conquer every little bit and then once we've gotten our mpp level past the allies, we like to waste time sitting around waiting for tech and hammering poor UK's little RAF into the ground. Very original. What SHOULD constitute a REAL victory is defeating russia on his home turf, while fending off/defeating major invasions by the western allies. Bah, why do I waste my time. You're all too entrenched in the standard rules. I don't know about you, but the 'standard' rules stopped doing it for me after the 20th time of seeing the same repeated Axis moves. I hope SC2 addresses some of my concerns, but in case anybody wants to kill some time trying out these rules, i'm game. [ August 04, 2004, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Avatar ]

ADVANCED STRATEGIC COMMAND: BOTH SIDES: - No Tech level may reach more than Lvl 2 in ANY field, except Rockets. Industrial Tech may reach Lvl 4. After this level is reached, chits must be reclaimed. Axis Rules: - Germany is limited to 5 transports in Atlantic areas (everything west of Gib), and 1 in Med area. These include Axis Minors. Any direct tranporting (eg Kiel -> Oslo) are not included in these restrictions, only transports that stay at sea for 1 or more turns. - Italy is restricted to 2 transports in Med at the same time. note: Not only do these represent historical restrictions on respective countries' landing craft availability, they also counteract many controversial tactics. - Axis may not invade Spain until 1943 - Vichy France may not be invaded until 1942 - Sweden may not be invaded until at war with Russia. - Italy may not research AT (not even to L1) - Malta may not be taken, only a forced evacuation and port damage (eg. losses too heavy for UK air/corps). Allies may elect to return. - Axis may only land troops on UK soil in 1940/41. After this period, an occupation of Moscow is required to invade UK. - Germany may only have maximum of 2 air units in Africa, and only 1 land unit (not incl. HQ). Italy is not restricted. Allied Rules: UK: - No UK unit may be disbanded until 1940 - No Allied DOW on Spain is allowed. Portugal may be invaded by Allies only starting from 1943. - LC/Italian Gambit not allowed by Allies. - UK may only have 5 tranports at sea at one time (including transit through Suez) - USSR may not advance more than 3 hexes into Finnish territory until 1943. - USSR may only invade Sweden if it is Axis held. - USSR may not invade Turkey until 1943 - USSR may not have more than 3 tranports in Baltic at one time. USSR may not have more than 3 tranports active in Black Sea at one time. - No UK/US Armies or Air allowed on East Front. - No USSR pieces allowed west of Suez Canal. USA - USA is allowed unlimited tranports - No other restrictions for USA, except Tech. Bid rules are still undecided. 1:3:5 could be acceptable (eg bid of 150 = 150 UK : 450 USA : 750 USSR). Perhaps no bid. Comments? These rules represent a more historical approach to WW2, and limit actions of players to historically 'acceptable' scenarios. Tech will still have an effect, but less so, with more realistism emphasized. Now you can only get so much higher than another country in tech, limiting some of the controversy. I think games will be more realistic, more fun, and Axis will have (in general) more of an uphill fight, like it should be. This is not a scenario, and should be played as the standard 39 campaign. Anybody want to play a game with these rules? I would love to try them. I'm looking at you Terif/Zapp/Rambo/Kuni/Anyone [ August 04, 2004, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: Avatar ]

End of March. Slight chance of Axis breakthru next turn, who knows. Experience being gained in Med, maybe it'll help. Actually, the whole damn navy's getting xp. I'll probably lose tho

My bad. Ok, Turn 5 for Allies looking not as good as hoped for. Can barely keep up with replacement corps at the front. Wonder if I will be able to hold until reinforcements come?? Navy getting XP in Med, Ireland attacked last turn, new twist on things

Ok, my 2 cents. I'm no master of this game because I choose not to be. I have loved other games in my past though. I used to play Star Wars Collectictable Card Game as was Regional Champion of eastern Canada, plus a number of times provinicial champion. I went to the World Championship and played (in Virginia) twice, winning a free plane ticket once. I loved the game. I thought about cards and strategies, all day, everyday. Terif is good at SC because he has 400+ games. I have 20+ games. I've spent around 200+ hours on SC. Terif has probably spent 3000+ hours on SC. Zapp, you'll most likely never be as good as Terif (and neither will I), because he puts in the time than neither you nor I are willing to. I don't hold this against him. Some ppl like poker, some bowling, some prefer watching TV all day. I understand Terif, and he speaks to us like we are children of this game, because we ARE children. You can't really beat him, even if you do beat him. HOWEVER, with SC2, we restart all over again, and THIS time, I will give Terif a challenge. I've always been quite good at every strategy game I've played, and do not like to lose. I doubt that Terif is likely to retain his top spot among SC2 players, UNLESS he devotes excessive amounts of time to it. I, for one, have other things to do, and can't afford to study/manipulate the system because it's so time consuming. Actually, I've always wondered since coming on the board how Terif even had/has the time he did to learn SC. He's too sane to be a genius/crackpot, so he must just have a really cushy job and a very understanding girlfriend

Actually, in all fairness, I'd like one more game with this strategy. 1st: I cheated. Terif gave me a break by not invading from the south of france. 2nd: I didn't have to lose 2nd RAF unit 3rd: I mis-judged France's fall by one turn and my UK units were all stranded. 4th: I don't make mistakes twice. Terif, if you could ever bare playing such a game again, i would like another try If I lose badly, I promise to never bother you again.

You know, given 50 tries against Terif with my LC strategy, I'm bound to get luckier in some of the games. I think with more exp. at handling the 'finer' details of the game, I could manage to crack the master. Probably on 10-20% of the time, but it could be done So Terif, we're done game #3, now for games 4-50. lol

Well, I'm writing this with the game already finished. I'll tell it like it was: 1-3 Axis Turns: Axis takes it slow in Poland, accumulating experience. Denmark takes a turn longer than it should, however both surrender at the end of his 3rd turn. He manages to destroy the Fr Army SE of Brussels on his 2nd turn, and destroys another corp on his 3rd. RAF intercepts. 1-3 Allied Turns: Prepared to take Iraq, moved corps into line. Moved RAF from Malta, replaced it with Algiers corps (note: terif gave me a break. Although I playtested this scenario, Italy usually arrived on axis' 5th turn, however, random italian readiness jumped higher than expected and suprised my open southern border. Terif gave me a break and didn't exploit this. How nice of him Allied fleets floating around the med. 4-10 Axis Turns: 2 turns the Axis destroyed 2 corps, and 2 turns he didn't destroy any. The rest he destroyed 1/turn. It took him til september to take paris, although it could have lasted til October if I had reinforced it to full. As it was, I destroyed 1 army, and he destroyed my 2nd RAF on turn 9 or 10. I would have fought on, but the suprise taking of Paris meant my UK troops were stranded . In the med, the Italians came out in force. I lost 1 RN BB, 1 Fr BB, 1 RN CL, and he lost 2 BB's + CL. Even. The war in france could have lasted til January 41, but Terif is a master master master of Air. He micromanaged so well that it was as if RAF was having very little effect. My thoughts? Assuming with this experience, and possibly slightly better luck, I would do better in the future. I did like my position. I know he could have eventually taken Iraq, but I had 3 corps plus 2 BB's guarding. Terif had to research, and take in short order Norway, Vichy, Sweden, Spain, Africa. His final MPP stood at 1298, his Air was 10,10,9,2,2. He didn't have Manstein. USSR was at 34%, US at -15%. Were my chances good in the late-game? Hard to say. I didn't lose a carrier, and was somewhat sloppy with my other two, so they were damaged. Again, with exp, I should perform slightly better. Assuming my canadian units, plus 2 uk corps wouldn't be stranded, I think my overall position wouldn't have been that bad at all. Again, it's hard to say. I don't mind losing iraq later, because overall, it makes the UK stronger in the long run... i think And remember, this was against THE Master. THE. I have to add as well, do you realize how long the summer months are?? I was itching for 41 to come along and June July and August felt like forever. God.

IMO, he should never get to 10 airfleets, but assuming he does, the easiest solution as Russia is to buy {with bid) around 5-6 extra air, and then put a couple extra chits in Jets. I like to have at least 3 chits in Jets if. Wait til you catch up, or even surpass, and then group your air together and attack axis corps, so his jets will intercept and get weaker. Instead of buying armies+tanks, buy cheap corps to fill the gaps, and retreat when necessary.

“Serious discussions? What do you want to talk about? Moving a tank? What Patton's shoe-size was? This is a game, not cancer research." "Where I live, Sodomy(ed: that's anal sex for those who don't know)is against the Law. Therefore playing SC in Idaho against a Sodomite is against the Law. I will follow the Law.” - Rambo I can't help it. I crack up everytime this guy writes. I'm going through Kuni's 'smack talk' section, and i'm laughing my pants off reading Rambo's diatribes. I love it, and you guys were thinking of BANNING this guy from SC a while ago??? This guy IS SC. How could ppl have taken every comment so seriously from him? He WANTS to make you laugh, and you all spit on him. Shame on you. [ August 02, 2004, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: Avatar ]

Hubert, you're from Montreal no? Me too Pointe-Claire. Anyhow, just wanted to let you know the most important thing about the game is getting as much playtesting done as you can. Play balance is huge, and frequent updates are tiresome. BTW, do you have need for any outside playtesters?

I live for Rambo's comments. He should've been a stand-up. He's a 'true' American in my book. Us cannucks don't have the sense of humour that can be found in Rambo's kin. We just don't. 20-1 odds against me? Wow, that good? Hah! Seriously, I'd place them around 4-1 against me. Terif always seems to come up with something, and this time should be no different. However, I did build this strategy with him in mind, so we'll see. This might be the best Allied strategy you boys 'll ever see In any case, it's going down tomorrow 9am GMT+1. And Jesus, I'm not top 5? I beat y'all one time or another. Except Terif, but he doesn't count. Maybe I'm #6? Rambo, we really need a replay option. It's really ridiculous. The game should auto-compile every turn and saved in a file that can be uploaded to the website and shown to all. And to Sombra, although you may be good, you'll never be Rambo. I played Rambo ~10 times, him winning around 60%+, i forget, but in any case, he's a Patton, and you're not BTW, I don't want you all putting Terif's head on a pike if he loses. Which he will

Kuni, if he DOW's turn 1.... hahahahahahahahaha Sombra, I do see your point, and it seems like a weak position, but that's only because it seems that way. 1, No plunder for LC? Allies never get plunder anyways (unless it's turn 2 LC, which Axis never allow). 2. The huge advantage is that the Axis DONT get a huge foothold in LC. The time you buy at the frontlines=time for other hexes to entrench. With this strategy, and it's narrow front, axis can only crawl forward, and a lot of the time, not forward at all. But, it's this in combination with the 2 RAF+Monty which buy you the time. If LW needs time to reinforce, then it can't attack, hence Wehrmacht can't advance = more time lost. LW HAS to reinforce (every 3 turns), or it will be bled dry. Damage from superior RAF, and damage from ground units means weak weak weak LW units. Try it out. Move the Malta Air to S london and buy Monty. Invade LC. Try it out, play both sides, you'll see what I mean. Also, make occasional attacks with the London air, it does extra damage to any interceptor. 3. Early war entry of italy by 3-4 turns, bah, who cares. with Fr Navy and RN in Med, there's nothing for Italy to do. He's only getting 115mpps, so ~500 extra in total than normal. Well, delaying axis 6+ turns is worth more than 500 isn't it? Definitely. Anyways, tomorrow at 9am Terif and I have our match. I promise to give a detailed match AAR. I'm very interested myself in seeing what he can do. My guess is that he'll try to destroy that 2nd RAF unit outside London, but I won't let him

Terif might definitely see things that I don't. He's right, you can attack that lone RAF unit outside London, but that requires moving LW units into range. At first, He cannot enter LC because of the restricted narrow front, and later, when it does widen, he will be able to move 1 or 2 into range. It will be interesting to see what he will do. Playtesting against myself, I found moving LW around usually produced very little results. The RAF S or SW of London is ent 2, and the LW will need that unit to intercept, and then hit it with (at least) 2 other LW units. However, the RAF in London will intercept one of these and no doubt that unit will be heavily heavily damaged. It's definitely tight. The lack of Manstein will not allow weakened LW units to do much damage, and so the RAF will be at advantage almost the entire battle. The attacks out of London will force intercepts, and hence the LW will rarely, if ever, be at full strength. Italian Corps in LC provide nice targets as well . Post-France (assuming Paris falls in early-mid 41) doesn't look bad at all. A lot better than it normally should. 1st, Italian Navy should be damaged/partly/totally destroyed, so moving some remaining 2-3 RN units back to the east med is advisable. Then it requires LW support to get you out of iraq. Brest, possibly even Bordeaux, should be garrissoned and entrenched early on to annoy axis even further. Another RAF unit would be great, making 3. You should have at least 2-3 corp left over from france, and 1-2 could go back to UK, another 1-2 into east med. Most of the LW will be weak and inexperienced(HUGE!) after France, and rebuilds will be required. German ground units will be weak as well after months of campaigning (little $ as 99% goes to LW) and also need some eventual rebuilding. I wouldn't sacrifice anything needlessly, the war is not over yet. France should fall, and UK must be prepared. RN must be in shape and some corps still alive. US won't be in the war until end of 41, beginning 42, but Russia will be around in time. Germany won't have nearly as many mpp's for everything, and the war will be uphill from then on. I rate this strategy as the most 'realistic' because it gives the allies the upperhand (with the bid). note: If Terif proves me wrong, I'll crawl back into my hole

Geey, really didn't expect this much output, least of all from the master Ok, Terif, don't know how to say this, but, you're wrong. We have to play a game so I can prove it to you. 1st: You need at the most to disband 1 RN BB. That's hardly sacrificing against a Sealion. It's nothing actually. Don't argue that it's this reason that UK will be open to invasion, because they will not. 2nd: Destroying the Fr Army on Turn 2 is not ~14 damage from the 4 units. Remember, you have 1 armor, 1 army, 2 corps + 3 air to attack it with. The armor does ~3 damage, the 3 air do ~5-6 damage (RAF will limit 1-2 of the air's damage), the army has ~1 damage, and the corps ~0 damage. that's ~9-11 damage. You test it out, you'll see what I mean. Anyhow, this army surviving is NOT a requisite for a successful french defence. 3rd: You have 3 Maginot hexes to defend + 3 the 3 hexes in LC (SW of Brussels, S, and LC forest Hex). That's 6 units you need, PLUS 2 to defend right behind the S hex, because that's the line weakpoint. French start with 5 armies (1 presumed to be destroyed) so 4 armies, 3 corps (you built 2 with dismantled Air) and 1 BEF corp). That's the line. French can build a corp almost every turn thereafter. UK can also build corp almost every turn. And Terif, what losses for the Allies? I'm not losing anything I wouldn't normally lose. I'm losing a couple brit corps, plus most of the french army. I'm not losing those RAF units, and I'm losing only 1 BB to disbanding, which I may get back as a Free French BB! The german subs in Atlantic untouched? I think not. You can send the northern fleet of 2 carriers + 2 BB's, and 1 Fr CL after them. Yeah, you might lose something, maybe, but at least you kill them. Actually, 1 weakness of this strategy is that there's virtually nothing to oppose the german baltic fleet from coming out of hiding, but they can hardly play a part anyways. 4th: Can LW(3-4 air) and Wehrmacht really destroy 1 corps a turn early on? Yes and No. That RAF coming out of London really, and I must emphasize really, damages the LW. It damages those attacking LW so much sometimes that they often don't do 2 because of their readiness drop. Often, they even do 0. Remember also that the defending ground unit can often do ~1 damage to attacking air unit, so that must be factored in as well. On average, LW is taking considerably more damage than RAF. The fact is, you can't keep attacking relentlessly in the LC with LW because they need reinforcements every now and then. Getting these replacements lowers their XP and buys the allies more time. Manstein would help, but he costs so much that buying him means 1 less LW air unit. It's win-win for allies in any case. 5th: Economic balance sheet: Germany + Italy: 301 Mpp's a turn (186 + 115) Britain + France: 280 Now, what you don't see is this: Germany's LW is NOT, nor can be, supplemented by any Italian Air. German army attacking LC (mostly french) is NOT being helped by Italian army. As a matter of fact, Italy is useless in this early conflict. Like I said before, the only power it has is it's navy, which with said strategy, is neutralized. So, now that you realize that it's only 280 mpp from UK/France against 186 from Germany, there's a serious tilt in favor of the allies here. Germany DIDN'T get Belgium plunder, plus only ~600 from Denmark, Poland. Economically, allies are much more at an advantage. French can use it's MPP's to support/create army units, while UK can support air, plus occasionally build a corp. Italy's piddling 115 won't allow for an HQ/Air unit for another 7-8 turns at least. Maybe Italy can buy a sub unit or two in the same time, but that's about it. Italy plays no part in LC, let's fact it. 6th: Big sacrfice in this game for allies is significant drop in US readiness, 100% I agree. BUT WHO CARES??? It's the USSR that really matters, and it's readiness is virtually untouched. Invading Iraq doesn't affect the situation because Axis ALWAYS waits to invade Iraq after USSR(and US) has joined anyhow! Only LC invasion slows down USSR entry by ~2 turns. Big deal. I've even declared war on Ireland and gotten US readiness to -30%. So what? By the time Germany finishes with france in early 41 (maybe even later), US readiness is rising, and Axis have very little time to do anything. RAF is strong. Brest is fortified, LW is damaged, Italy's fleet may or may not be sunk. Africa therefore easier to defend. So, assuming all this, Axis has around 12-15 turns to: Save for research, repair units, invade Sweden, Norway, Vichy, Spain, Greece?, Yugoslavia, and take the Brits out of Egypt. Against any veteran allied player, there's only the smallest chance for the axis, like it SHOULD be Final comments: I would really like to see this strategy stand up against Terif. I swear to god Terif, I've really really tried to play the Axis like you. And i am complementing you when I say I imitate your every move.