SeaWolf_48

Intresting concepts everyone. Well, there is the matter of national resolve. The Italians would surrender to a U.P. News truck, and the Russian in Leningrad were cut off for 900 days and would not give in, the French had standard issue White Flags in their position, and the Germans usually only surrendered when their sour kraut and ammo was gone. The Jap's liked to blow there brains out by sticking a rifle in their mouth and pulling the trigger with their big toe, the Brit's surrendered after a cup of tea, and the Americans surrendered on Corregidor after 4 months and at Kasserine after 4 hours. There are more important issues in SC than surrender, but I could be wrong. THe game during head to head play is to long now, maybe this could be an option to turn on and off as desired. I'm not trying to pea on your picnic, I guess it's just that it's friday, and I'm going to play golf at 11:00 and want out of the office, sorry!

Hi JJ In Rommel's book "Knights Cross" he explains how during the Battle of France he would get so far out infront of the Army that his Superior's and even Hilter once told him to stop. Guderian got in the same trouble with Kluge whom he hated, for the same thing. Both Guderian and Rommel testify that the people that they have surrounded were very demoralized and confused by the panzerblitz and usually couldnot even counter attack after a few days. The largest penetrations during a breakthrough were up to 200 miles, and they would meet the other arm after about one week. 2nd Panzer Group (Guderian) and 3rd Panzer Group (Hoth) left Poland and met in Minsk 200 miles away after one week. Two weeks later Guderian was in Smolensk another 200 miles and surrounded more Russians. Rommels penetrations in France was around 200 miles also, Ardenne to the French coast. In North Africa penetrations varried but usually they were 200 miles or less. After a 200 mile penetratiion with armor into enemy territory supplies, gasoline and ammo started to be in short demand. Also with a Panzer Group, or later Army, as you drove into the flanks of the enemy you would drop off battalions to protect your flanks. Your supply of flank protection battalions ran out after that distance. The enemy surrounded had a hard time to break out, and usually surrended. The Brirish were the only one's to maintain intregrity and retreat when in France ( trusting in their Navy to get them out). In Third Reich you would use a BridgeHead Unit to PanzerBlitz from, and this would supply you up to 4 or 5 hexes (around 200 miles). I know you know about this history, but wouldn't this be nice in Strategic Command also!

Thanks Night, we are of course right. But really if the conquering unit could move into the defeated units hex after combat alot of these problems would change. The reason that WW2 was different than WW1 was because of new combined weapon tactics, of which the new powerful designed tanks played it's part. In Guderians book "PanzerBlitz" he tells of the new combined attack developed by him which involved, artillary, fighterbombers and dive bombers (flying artillary), fast moving armored troops (Panzergrenidiers), and tanks - Panzers. These troops were to break thru the infantry and then penetrate deep behind enemy lines to disrupt supplies and command structures. They were to be able to stand alone until the infantry units could catch up. These tactics worked in WW2 several times, and changed the way military lesders looked at war. No more WW1, Verduns or the Somme, but now Lightning War! But more than the movement after combat, I wish we could get a hybrid game testing with units that would retreat if heavy destruction prevailed upon them, retreating one hex!

I thought that this was a WW1 game? Just kidding, but your point is well made. You can never have a armored break thru in SC because if you do the armor dies on the vine. The same would happen with Paratroops if SC stays the same as it is now. You can never have a modified Schlieffen Plan to attack France that will work the way the units opperate now. Guderian and Rommel would not be household names today with the tactics we use in this game. The only way to win in SC now is to slug it out upon one unit with three infantry units and four air units to kill a Corps or Army. This brings us back again to units retreating when they substain heavy damage instead of standing and dying. Another thing that keeps the game non-fluid is being able to place newly created units next to enemy units. You spend time to kill an enemy corps and the next turn your opponate stick a new corps in the same spot you just conquered. Most other wargames allow you to possess the hex you just won with the conquering unit. New units should not be able to be placed to enemy units. You guys know I like the game now, but I do miss the Panzerblitz factor perfected in other wargames. Happy wargamming

I don't know if this has been brought up before, but the Deplomacy in SC needs some tweeking. It seems to me that Hilter approached Spain personally to convince Franco to join the Axis powers. Franco wanted planes, tanks, and food and was afraid that England would not fall and later attack Spain with their navy. The Spainards were sick of war but wanted parts of North Africa and France. Hilter said it was a matter of time before England fell. He told his advissors later that he would rather have his teeth pulled out than to meet with Franco again. Germany wanted to attack Gibraltar thru Spain. If Cairo would have fallen, or London captured Spain might have joined the Axis. Also von Ribbentrop traveled several times to Turkey trying to convince them to join the Axis. They had fought with Germany in WW1 against the allies, and were sympothetic toward the Germans. Germany also said that they would give them the Greek Islands if they joined, very tempting for Turkey. Turkey was affraid of Russia, but if Moscow, Lennengrad, and or Stalingrad had fallen I think they would have joined the Axis. Also if Cairo had fallen they would have been more closely allied to the Germans Right now only the traditional Axis Minors join Germany. I've been told over and over again by this forum tha SC is a game of WHAT IFS! I think that if certain conditions are meet, Germany could spend MPP's to influence Spain or Turkey (and Sweden) to join the axis powers. The only way to get their support now is if the Allies attack the Neutral countries. What say ye....

SeaWolf Allies no handcap concedes to Zappsweden Axis. HE had a very impressive opening.

My vote is no Global SC2. The scale of the two areas is to different to have the same movement, and possibly unit sizes also. Two different games SC European Theater, SC Pacific Theater. Ike and Hitler. Tojo and MacArthur. Then when both games get all the bugs and gliches out of them, a master integration module for SC3. Hopefully SC Pacific Theater would be Aircraft Carrier dominate, with carrier battles inside of major battles. I don't know if anything we say here counts, but this is my wish list!

These are all good points about airborne. This subject never goes away. Since my Dad was in the 82nd All American Airborne Div. it is a subject dear to me. The US ended up with 5 Airborne Trained Divisions 82,101,17,13,11. British had two 1,6. Italy had one. Russia had three. And Gemany had more than three divisions, although only two had combat jumps, in Belgium and Crete. Several Luftwaffe Divisions were trained to jump but with the war the way it was in 1944, they did not have the planes or air control of the skys to perform jumps. My point is: The US and Britain had 2 Corps worth of ParaTroopers, Russia 1 Corps, Germany atleast one corps, and Italy had one Division trained, and would have been used with German Paratroops at Malta, Equalling roughly one Corps of Axis Para's. Would they fit into SC, ofcoarse! Will they? I hope so. P.S. Wasn't Charles DeGaulle spelled with two L's? [ January 28, 2003, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: SeaWolf_48 ]

As far as Paratroops are concerned, I think the tail is wagging the dog. Instead of, is the game able to produce Para's correctly, it should be, the Germans and the Allies used Para's to produced a winable situation during war and how can the game mimic what was done in history. The last three airborne drops in WW2 were all Corps size operations. Normandy, Market-Garden, and Versity. Sicily, Naples, and Crete were all division size operations, but none the less were all decisive in there conclusions. Germany almost had a drop into Malta, and the Western Allies were thinking about using Airbone troops to take Berlin before the Russians got there. These would be great what-ifs.

Use strategic movement.

I like Mr Carthage's suggestion about having another option on the pulldown bar for Amphibious assult. This should only be used by nations that develop this technology in the research option. I've found reports on the effort for industry by all the belligerents during WW2. If there is intrest I will produce a spreadsheet showing yearly outputs. USA 1941-45 156 Bil Dollars UK 1939-45 55 Bil Dollars USSR 1941-45 65 Bil Dollars 3rd Reich 1939-45 67 Bil Dollars Italy 1940-43 5 Bil Dollars As you can see the American MPP's in SC are less than Britain, and should be almost three times that of Britain. Also Germany is less than half of the USA GNP for war.

How can you have the Normandy invasion in SC? Doesn't that shock anyone about SC! Without support of a port you will not be able to supply your Corps. To overcome this TR had Beach Head Counters that supplied like a port. The British designed Mulberries so that they would be supported until a major port could be opened. It took months to get a major port opened up (Cherbourg) to ship traffic. It took longer for Brest to open. How about having a Beach Supply Unit in SC2, I'm sure it's to late for SC?

Thanks Hubert for chiming in, it's not very often that the people that design sofeware games respond to any suggestions. This is by far the best WW2 forum that I've come across. I run the design department at a small engineering company. We design refineries, pipelines, tank farms, power plants, truck terminals and many other things. Some people (cad operators) I get here think that knowing autocad (a computer design program)is the most important thing, others, designers, think that the drawings that they make, the product, the most important thing. I'd rather have a designer with poor cad skills, than a cad operator with poor design skills. It's more important to know how to design than to know the design tool. My point is what is the final product?

Well said Immer Etwas, what is a immer etwas? Is it a Sawte Remmi backwards. Well anyway you are very eloquient and have a very good command of the Kings English. I have to agree with the statements about killing is killing, no matter which way you do it. Dresden is one of mans worst! On the other hand it seems that earth has lost it's innocence after using a nuke on itself. Man will alway use any weaponed that he develops to beat his neighbor or enemy, that's human nature. But like Einstien said " I don't know what kind of weapons they will use in world war three, but they will use sticks and stones in world war four. Here my point, we can now create Armmagaddon with nuclear weapons, before them conventional weapons were bad but didnot have the capibility to destroy mankind. We have openned Pandora's box or let the Genie out of the bottle, whichever, by using the bomb on mankind, and if done once it's easier to do the next time. Jersey John your right, those big bugs were scarry, Them

Intresting points about the A-Bomb. I quess if your a soldier fighting against the Japs, you love the bomb, if your thinking about innocent women and children you think that it was wrong to nuke the cities. I think that a demostration in Tokyo harbor would have been enough. On the other hand if we wouldn't have dropped the big one we would have never had all of those great monster movies like, Godzilla, Mothra, Godzilla vs Megalon, Godzilla vs the Bionic Monster, Godzilla vs the Cosmic Monster, Godzilla vs. the Sea Monster, Smog Monster, the Thing, Gigan, Monster Island, and Godzilla 2000. Wee-ou that's alot of Godzilla. Those people are obsessed with monsters from Atomic blasts.

Yes the Burp's in Third Reich worked well. If someone still has the formula that they used would you please issue it here on this forum. I don't like now how Italy now can become level 5 in anything. They should only be allowed 5 research pts. total, and only able to reach level 2 or 3. The US should have around 18 Res. pts.. Uk should have 12. Germany around 12. USSR aruond 8. But not all countries the same! One way to keep thing the same, let the level of industry keep building and not limit it to level 5. Units would increase but will cost less. Is this kicking a beehive?

I was under the impression that there are two sizes of Intantry units in SC. An Army unit and a Corps unit. When you buy a corps it cost 125 MPP's, and an Army 250. Therefore you would guess that a corps = 3 Divisions. Does an Army = 6 Divisions? Most Armies during WW2 averaged around 12 Div. per Army, some less some more. Is therefore the Army in SC really two Corps or a Half Army? Also if a Corps is 3 Divisions why would you need a Corps to suppress partisans. That seems like overkill and a waste of Trained first line troops. It would seem better to eliminate partisans altogether, or make there size smaller. Most partisan units during the war were small, never exceding 1,000 men. In Russia only in the Pripet Marshs did Partisan groups get large than that. When playing the German player I need to put a Corps (3 Div with about 50,000 men) in every city or a partsan group will move in. Believe me, Germany never did that (except Warsaw in 44) but did have second line occupation troops for this task, usually in the size of a battalion (1200 men) or a Division at the most (15,000 men). There are two solutions for this problem, either make another unit a Occupation Division costing 30 Mpp's, or eliminating the partisan group altogether. The scale right now just doesn't work! Back to my first question. What size is the army unit? Is it 6 divisions, or 12? If 6 then it would be like stacking two corps into one square, I like that! If 12 divisions then they should have more power and cost more. I think someone need to think this problem out! Russian Armies were really Corps size units anyway. They shouldn't even have armies unless the army is two stacked corps. HQ units in SC I think are Army Group HQ's. Then a HQ unit should be able to supply around 5 armies worth of troops. This wold be about 20 Corps worth, not just 5 units. If the Army unit is two corps that would mean that an HQ should be able to supply 10 doulbe Corps units or SC Armies. While I'm on the subject, how many planes is a Air Unit? 1000 planes, 500 planes. If 1000 then no bomber units should be used unless they are for Germany bombing England, or the US and Uk bombing Germany after 1943. 1000 fighters or fighter/bombers attacking a corps would be very tramatic indeed. 1000 fighters attacking naval forces would be inconceivable (much bigger than Midway, a battle that changed history). Are there a 1000 planes flying from AirCraft Carriers. How many times did that happen. Only the US at the end of the war against Japan when the USN had 25 Essex class AC's. All armies during WW2 in Europe had a different classification of units that were armored or mechinized. The Germans called them Panzer Grenidier Divisions, the Russians called them Mechinized Corps, the Brits and US called them Armored Infantry, even the Italians had them. How about some units that reppresent this class of warfare. They would be alittle stronger, and move alittle farther than Reg Inf Div. Germany used them for panzer blitz tactics to follow the Tank units, they were the only units that could keep up with the tanks. Later they were given Tank Destroyers and were used to stop the Russian juggernaught. These units had Armored cars or half-track vehicles to protect infantry units on the move. Just a thought! Finally, ships! Are these units Task Forces. How many ships in a task force? I don't know if it's just me but I would like to know the scale of the units in the game? [ January 22, 2003, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: SeaWolf_48 ]

Great stuff guys, hay JJ that story is really funny about the VA guy that should have recieved the Iron Cross! After reading all that stuff about Nuclear Weapons and how Atom and Hydrogen Bombs work, I come back to the same old question. Did the US have to bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki instead of making a demistration off the coast of Tokyo, or on top of a mountain somewhere. Was the A-bomb the ultimate terrorist weapon killing innosent women and children, or did it save lives. Would Japan have surrendered in Oct. or Nov. anyway. What do you think?

Thanks Wachtmeister, got my answer on a site called "Outlaw Labs". Sounds scary aye. Ah the wonders of fission and fussion bombs. One US Neuclear sub has 25 times the explosive power of WW2. Arn't you glad No. Korea has joined the Neuclear family, Have a nice day!

Very intresting my good man, you seem to know your sh_t. I did look at the periodic chart and Hydrogen has no neutrons, helium has two neutrons. Am I wrong in that an atom bomb is a fusion bomb, and the hydrogen bomb is a fision bomb? I've read that they use a fusion bomb to start a fision reaction for a hydrogen bomb? Please set me straight. [ January 22, 2003, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: SeaWolf_48 ]

Professor Wachtmeister, you are probably right about the usage of Heavy Water, I'm not a neuclear scientist, actually a Mech Engr, but U-235 is bad stuff. Do you know if a hydrogen bomb is an fision bomb? You seem to be explaining a Hydrogen bomb above. And how would Hitler have used an atom bomb? [ January 22, 2003, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: SeaWolf_48 ]

What if, the German Scientist had developed the bomb. I've read that the leader of the german project for the atomic weapon, misslead the other scintist that heavy water was the answer, also that germany didn't have uranium U-238, and finally (I forget his name) Dr. Sourkraut or something did not trust Hilter with the bomb so he lead all the other scientist into heavy water projects, thus they built the facilities in Norway. Heavy water is H2O2. We know now that it would have taken about 10 tons of heavy water to make a bomb (that is 22,000 lbs. of water plus the weight for the container and detenator, the size of a freight car). Hard to deliver! But what if their scientist made U-235 somehow, what would Hitler have done with this weapon. How would he have delivered the bomb? Who would he have used it on? Let's say he has his first bomb July 1, 1944 (a few days before the assassination attemp). With one delivered every 60 days after that. Give me some senarios guys! [ January 22, 2003, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: SeaWolf_48 ]

Sounds good Bill, I plan to download the new senario's as soon as I get Home, (I try not to play at work). Hay, how about giving the US Level 5 on Industrial Technology at the beginning, make it so that the US does not have to spend MPP's except on AT, Tank, and Jets. P.S. Is it true that if Germany takes Athens she can build a sub there?

What would Martin Luther King say about you guys talking about war on his Birthday. The question is not how much damage or what happens if ships bombard units on shore. The real question is, is this a computer game or is this a historical war game. I think SC is a computer game, and that's what the builders of this game want! If this is a historical game then all the things we feel couldn't happen, like a ship or a plane unit destroying a ground unit could never happen. Units would retreat when taking heavy damage, not just set there and die (Hitler would be so proud). Also the map would be more like Europe and not like what we have. Or maybe SC is alittle of both? Which makes no one happy except the designers of the game and the players who don't care about historic realism. Instead of going towards the new war movies about history, Saving Private Ryan, and Band of Brothers, maybe we should be thinking about Spider Man, and Crouching Tiger. I'm trying to like the game as a game, and not trying to redo history as General Stuelpnagel, I guess? [ January 20, 2003, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: SeaWolf_48 ]

Hay Paullus, your statement sound very pompus! This is a fun forum, we don't always get our facts perfect but we all respect eachother for putting their necks out on the line and having some fun dialoging on this forum! So please don't go postal on us!