Iron Ranger
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Posts posted by Iron Ranger
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Perhaps I'm looking at this differently then most, but the reality is each senario is only ment to be played for 1 - 1.5 years (24-35 turns) before swinging greatly out of balance. I'll pick Tech as my base for this idea.The game is soooooo Much about a Minor Jump or a quick blocking action on the Germans... 90% of my games end in 1941Max of 5 chits in one slot means you could get a 1 in 4 chance of reciving an advance (slow down -1 aside)so you could advance from L0 to L5 in 20 turn, thats less then one year (24 turns). You can go from flying bi-planes to 2nd-3rd generation jets in less then one year, and that includes reequiping the front line units/training and getting from a test project to a production unit. Man I'd like to see the Ind Engr. in charge of that project!
Bottom line is if you want a more historical game play the 41 or 42 (modified or std) game and you will find the game engine good (but still missing a few areas) at everything.
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Getting near the end of new ideas for SC but thought I'd throw this out for fun. There are a few assumtions here; I ignored the AA bug, Carriers have 4 bars exp, all air unit have 0 exp, no adjustment for randomness (+/-1 each combat). This example will look at UK with Carriers and Germany with Bombers.
Numbers (from memory so I might be off):
Carriers (AA=1 AD=3) + 1 for each level of jets
Bombers NA 5
Air Fleets AA/AD 3 + 1 for each Jet; ND 2 NA 4
I also assumed each unit was close to the 'top' in supply and command (10 HQ, 10 Supply, full Str). I used L3 jets as a base since its in the middle and a 'standard' level in 42 during Operation Slegehammer.
What we are looking at is the excange of damage between Air Fleet supported Carriers and Bombers. The key here is that a supported Bomber always gets through to the target at full strength.
First, what you normally see: Air Fleet attacks a Carrier in range of support (near UK?)
Axis Air Fleet str 13 Attacks Carrier
UK Air intercepts Axis Air
Intercepted Str now 7 (AD 6 vs AA 6 : 13 - 6)
Continues attack on Carrier Str now -1 (NA 4x0.7 vs AD 7 +/- 2 for exp : 9 - 6)
What you end up seeing is a totally destroyed axis air fleet and the UK with a moderatly damaged air fleet and a Carrier with little damage. Bad move for the axis.
Second, Bomber attacks Carrier with Air fleet support for both. (? mark for LR tech)
Bomber str 10 Attacks Carrier str 10-?
UK Air intersecpts Axis Bomber (13 vs 10)
Axis Air intersecpts UK Air (13vs13: 6 damage each); both air fleets head home.
Bomber (str 2 after combat) hits Carrier (str 7-? after combat); NA 5 vs AD 6 +/- 2 for exp.
The end result is both sides have moderatly damaged Air Fleets (see below), Bomber heavly damaged, and a fairly damaged Carrier. However if the side with the bomber can hit the Carrier 1-2 more times will go down where as if you use only air fleets you will need 2-3 more attacking air then supporting units. And your air fleets might just get wiped out in the first few attacks. This is far from a great situation but unless you aggressivly attack the Carriers early on this is your only chance at sinking them.
Special side notes:
1) If the Bomber can gain exp it will be at a huge advantage as it will counter the exp on the carrier, the carrier will easily go down with 2 good attacks.
2) In the second example the intercepted air are now at str 7 and open to destruction because they are not lower then 5 (forced interception on the next turn).
3) Since Air Fleets have the odd span of NA 4 and ND 2, the best situation is if the Carrier comes close to axis shore and is 'coutered' during its turn (damaged). It will then be 'open' to an assult on the following turn by the Bombers and likely to sink with only 2 attacks. One HQ - 3 Air Fleets and 2 Bombers work well to defend the coast if you hold equal in LR and Jets.
4) In reality this will almost never happen as its too expensive and massed air is the best way to go. IE the best thing for Germany to do when she shifts her air west is to bring it all, or most of it. At which point a smart UK player will pull back and not engage the higher (should be) numbers of axis Air Fleets.
Questons/Feedback?
Edited for the mistake on Carrier AD - thanks Terif
[ January 21, 2004, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]
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Nice AAR guys, I love to see subs. When UK gets too frisky in the Med cutting them off on the return trip to England can work wonders for the long game.Axis have bought several subs and sinking almost every Allied ship in the Mid Atlantic. -
late 2005 or later
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Border city left open was the problem. Specificly a air fleet in a city (after 42?).
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For finding a player online the Opp Finder Forum has been slowly decreesing, to the point that weekdays are almost useless. There is a post with players ICQ #s, and Curry has a PBEM league started to playing the game through E-Mail. Drop me a line if you have specfic questions on starting a game, though O-2003 might be better as you can converse in Spanish.
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Yes, FF and I are playing our game in PBEM. I think the date is early 43, if you set a 'finish' date should we submit the games to a third party for a judgement?1. Iron Ranger - 6 points, 1 match to play (right?)AAR - Update:
West: US and UK units have landed and forced a powerfull responce from the Axis. Two german army groups were pulled out of the east or 'raised' in France to force them back. Because the port was desttroyed by the allied bombers there build-up was slow and allowed the axis the first 'punch'. This has forced the allies back to within 2 hexs of Brest with UK corps takeing a huge beating from the massed german armor (4 L2 tanks). Italy has also provided help by sending the units involved in the Algeria invasion north and 'covering' the flanks of the german units.
Med: Nothing - Syria allied - Malta still allied (forgot about this and sent a tranport to spot) - Iraq is Axis but land route from Moscow establised - VF axis.
Baltic: Nothing - Sweden axis...
Alantic: Nothing
East: 1/2 of the axis air is in the west so any advance is slow. Continuing to destroy one corps outside of Moscow every turn, Germany now controls 4 hexs around the city. Pulling back from the swamp/forest hexs east of Leningrad. Attack of Rostova called off, too costly but exploiting holes in the Red line around Stalingrad. Red Army combat group spoted just east of Moscow, expecting couter attack soon.
Tech: advances
USSR AT L2
USA AT L1
Ger Jets L2
Others ?????
[ January 06, 2004, 03:17 AM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]
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Sorry, the only advise I'll give (specfic) is stop partians on turn one. Its you #1 goal.What should be the strategy for Axis in the east? -
While messing with the 41 campaign and attempting to balance it, I was thinking on the battle of the Alantic, and how to set this up. You can't; subs are poor units for two reasons.
Low dive numbers - 25% at the start + 5% per level
Spoting - Your getting 100% intel no matter the distance you are from the unit
But what good is Sonar - what does it do? Sonar will incress the ND of BC,BB,CV units by one for each level, when they are attacked by subs.
This doesn't sound too good when Gun Laying Radar (GR) will incress the NA,ND and Str point by one for each level (BB&BC). In otherwords Sonar only helps one small area while GR helps in the same area and several more for the same price, only the CVs gain something 'extra' with sonar.
But lets say we change two items (or leave as is and just used this approach)
1) Sub Dive starts at 50% and incress 5% per level (max 75%). Now these guys would be very hard to kill and could cause some real problems while raiding.
2) Spoting is changed to a decressing % for each hex. 1-2 hexs 100%, 3 hexs 90%, 4 hexs 80% ect... This means at the 4-5 hexs you will spot subs with the bombers the odds of really 'spotting' him will be around 80-70%. You'll need to send you ships in a 'net' pattern to really find the sub.
And this is were Sonar would come in. If a 'searhing' ship hits a sub its a surprise event and the sub is 'attacking' and the ship is 'defending'. Sub is attacking so no dive. This ship will take heavy damage but unlikly to sink unless unlucky and the tech level of the sub is very high (4-5). But the ship since its defending gets to apply both its GR level AND the sonar level to its ND value - you would sink the sub with only this one 'hit' if the levels are high enough.
EXP: BBs ND value starts at 3 - GR L3 makes it 6 - Sonar L3 makes it 9. With alittle luck (+1), Exp and good supply you could be looking at 12 pts of damage to the 'attacking' sub. Ouch - down she goes, never to rise again.
This of course will never happen as the two weakness's of the sub will never change, patch 1.08? Understandable a 'foolish' subject but I just couldn't 'think' this up and not post about it. Sorry if this has been covered before.....
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Look in the post above, the only nongeneral advise I give is the most important for Germany - #1 prevent partisans.Dont forget that the axis has also to manage in the first turn not to have partisans -
Thoughts on play in the 42 Senario:
The 42 game is not the 39 game. This is pure combat from begining to end with combined arms making a huge difference. Forget the massed airfleets with long range, like in the 39 game. Short of huge luck with the limited chits you get, you will never reach the level of tech required to create a massive difference using an 'air race' strategy. This is not to say tech is unimportant, I invest in Jets and LR in every game but if you invest too much the other side should make you pay, right away! You do not have this huge gap in time from the fall of frace till the attack on Russia (and USA joining) to mess around and hide your investing of 8-10 chits in R&D.
Germany: You have the opening move, pick a plan and stick with it - pound on the allies as you'll need to keep them down if you wish to control the pace of the game. #1 - make sure you prevent partisans!
Italy: Support Germany, you have almost a full army group doing NOTHING. Shore up the area that Germany must leave 'empty' while off crushing those farmers (Rambos words).
UK: Defend, your in a good position (not great - no Torbrok) hold everything and don't allow the axis to rest. Prob and make them pay for mistakes with 'Ranger Raids' (Rambos words).
USA: Attack, for the allies you have the only 'free' units on the map. Pick a plan and move forward NOW. Any delay by the US will give the axis more time to consolidate and tougher to push back. Options are unlimited (control of the sea) but check with UK and attack the weak link in the armor of the axis (minors anyone?)
USSR: Bleed, AND make the axis bleed. This is the hardest job and where most players (me included?) fail. They just don't have the experence to play a historical Russia. Passive defense will not work, all out attack, forget it. You need to combine it all and hold on. Lose Moscow, bad but you will live. Lose Leningrad, the north is lost but you can continue to fight. Lose ???? (middle city), your going to have a hard time, I hope France has been revived. Lose Stalingrad (or the hexs south of it), Game Over unless you can retake or reconnect in the next two turns.
France: Your dead, when revived I always puschase corps to help hold the allied line. I've seen carriers too and armor. Aside from that, the HQs are too weak to make a difference, or did I miss something?
As the Allies expect to lose alot of units to finally take control of the game. I expect to lose 50-100 Russian units before the game will finish (the game against Rambo quit in late 43 with over 60 Russia units destroyed and all starting 5 US armys wiped out). But time and time again I play people and they hold back, not wanting to lose units but constantly losing position, and in the end they have worked themselves into a no-win location. Don't allow this to happen!!
As the Axis attack!! The allies are down and you need to keep them down because if you let them get back on their feet you will never recover (short of a huge jump in tech, so there is hope); due to their total control of the sea and (at the start) dominance of the air. But this doesn't mean just attack Russia, a UK left alone will slowly build an unbeatable air core. Some Minors are looking good, and a lighting raid on Canada or the USA could throw the western timetable off so much that it will never recover. You have the initive don't lose it!
Hope this helps someone, I was going to wait unit all the games were over, but the exellent (but limited by his play of only one game, as stated) post by CC has brought these thoughts out of me.
Combat note: L2 Armor will crush air fleets! Armor has a AD of 3 while air fleets have a HA of 2. From a purely MPPs look the advantage is with the armor - and since the LR tech is low the support level should be the same (HQs can't easily be destroyed). So don't give up hope on the Tiger or T-34s - they both have a place in combat during 42.
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In the interest of fair play, if desired I'll take Allies in every game for this event (untill/If I face DH - we'll need to flip a coin, I think). I have been switching sides every game but will happly play the 'under dog' allies from now on.
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Nice post by CC - and he's generally right on everything.
The axis have the advantage in the 42 game, because they move first.
So if they play perfect and move first they should win, but if they make even one small mistake the allies can take the advantage. But there is luck in this game (less in the 42 then 39-41) and with the allies getting 4 'free' chits vs the 2 for the axis, the allies have the advantage in luck. therefor if both players play perfect the allies should win. But wait we have a +/- 1 combat event..... If you get my line of thought, 42 is as balanced as I can find in SC - everything can be improved on so maybe we do need a USA HQ or something else but not till more games are played.
With all the major powers acitive your options are limited - or unlimited if you prefer.
My view on a balanced game. Tic-Tac-Toe, a simple (limited) strategy game. The player moving first has the advantage but if he makes a mistake the second player has the advantage, if everone playes perfect its a draw. But in SC there are too many variable to play perfect (maybe Terif does) and there is enough randomness to make a draw tough.
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bump:
Keeping this near the top until the games are over (if we really finish them).
Short update on my PBEM game with FF - last game for me in group A:
East - This front has stablised with a north-south line running just to the west of Moscow. german and Itilian units are pounding on Rosvoca (sp).
Med - Stable with the alllies pounding on Bahgdad. VF is axis.
West - The allies have just landed and the germanys operated 5 armor and several other units into France. The port of Brest was destroyed by the allies so they can't land units in one turn.
Baltic - Sweden is now axis
Almost no tech advaces but with the heavy combat in the east and the size of the US/UK air force I don't think very many chits have been inversted.
MPPs - Germany 620 (?) - Italy (?) 125
USA - 200 (?) USSR 350 (?) UK 150 (?)
almost perfectly balanced
Man how drunk was I when I wrote this??? I'm not going to fix it up so everyone can take this to heart, don't drink and type.
[ January 04, 2004, 02:26 AM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]
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Optional adjustment for playability.
Level of Jet tech stays as is, no chits invested for the entire game.
Each side gets to pick one tech (historical) advance for each power. Both side need to aggree on the advance :eek:
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Summer of 42 - last post on the game
Med: with the Greek capital empty I try and reduce it to less then 5. Two Naval hits and a Bomber only get it down to 6
. Several other move's in secret as I plan my next attack.West: Two Corps destroyed, Allies now hold two hexs next to Paris. Reinforcements continue to arrive from USA and UK sends troops to help finish off the two german corps in Norway.
East: Moscow has fallen (with heavy damage to the attacking units), Russia counters killing one german army, one minor army and damaging another german army to str 2. Red air fleets are reinforced at set to 'trap' attacking German air that should be heavyly damaged after the last 2-8 turns of combat. Corps lines of defense are being set behind the Volga.
Axis player is burned out and surrenders.
Tech: chits/level/type
USSR 1/3/jets 0/1/AT
USA 1/1/AT
UK 3/3/jets 1/0/LR
Units left:
Navy - almost all but some damaged - high exp
Air - 3 L3 jets UK - 3 L3 jets Red vs 6 L3 Ger
Ground - USSR around 25
- USA around 10
- UK around 10
- Germany over 30
- Italy around 20
With two games in progress and this one compleated I would have to say that an unmodified 41 senerio is pro allies. But with afew changes it becomes balanced.
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Zero, unless the Axis go the rare route of building a sizable Navy. SB are really only usefull for UK in the early game and Germany in the mid to late game. I find that sooooo funny the the country that best can use the SBs is the country that never developed any (Germany).And, how many SBs should USSR and USA build versus AFs? -
I've never been a fan of the 'patch this' posts but if you want to 'fix' the problem with the TOO POWERFULL air fleets, you would need to start (and finish?) with these two changes.
1) Stop forced interception. Players at the end of there turn should be able to 'togle' if an air fleet is going to intercept that turn or not.
2) HQ defense. HQs act as a resource, they should get the benift as one. AA tech causes HQs to incress in strenght by 1 and raise's the units AD by one for each level.
I'm not going to go into my reasons why I think these are to two required changes, I would prefer everyone draw there own conclusions.
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One note on this (I assume your talking about the 39 std senerio): If the UK can hold onto France until the summer of 1940 the game becoumes very balanced without a limit on the number of air fleets. If the allies see/allow the axis (germany) to build a huge air fleet thats there own fault. The LR/Jets (and now AA) - all air plan is a powerfull one but it all based on luck and consitration of a limited powerfull attack. Air fleets are expensive and if any side has 'too many' then they must be weak somewhere else and you need to exploit it, if you don't they will eventualy cover this weakness and win. Thats the key to winning any game of SC - exploiting the mistakes or weakness of the other side.There seems to be a general consensus that some sort of air restrcition is necessary in SC -
July 42:
Alantic: UK and USA fleets control everything.
West: Two full army groups are now in France and fighting Itilian units for the hexs around Paris. VF is still deactivated, so the front is a small one, no axis air in sight. The number of units each side has is almost equal but the allies have the better HQs and air/sea support from England. Soon 2-3 units per turn should be getting destroyed. UK at L3 Jets.
Baltic: In the late spring Russia invaded Sweden, three turns latter she surrendered. One army group is now moving on Norway. The UK fleet continues to isolate Norway and gain exp on the two corps in the citys. A raiding UK corps has landed in the Denmark neck and taken Humburg and isolated Coppinhagen (sp).
Med: UK controls all of North Africa (just took Tripoli last turn with attacks from 1CV, 1BB, 1AF & 3 corps)and Sicily. A raiding corps also landed in the NW city and is holding on. Only a light number of axis units are in or near the supply sources. Italy still controls 3 BBs, Iraq is still deactivated.
East: The battle for Moscow continues, for weeks on end now there has been heavy fighting (something like 8 Red corps, 3 Armys, 1 Armor destroyed for 6 Axis armys sent to the Gulags) in and around the city. The Germans have finaly taken a three hex front on the city and are using 6 L3 AFs to destroy Red Army units. The Red Army continues to hit back and is giving around 1/2 the damage back that it is reciving. Southern front is stable with USSR corps facing German armys and armor across the Dineper River. Leningrad front has started advancing this turn/month with a mix of armys and corps, they have taken the swamp hexs south of the city while only facing one Axis Minor army (encircled). Russia holds Finland & Sweden and reviled L3 jets in the attack on Sweden.
Moscow has become a 'fur ball' of combat sucking in all quality units from both sides. The Red Armys sacrific has allowed the West to get easy Landings in Italy and France and put them in a position were they will not be removed, ie they will continue to advace unchecked. It looks like the Axis are playing the 'break not bend' approch and once Moscow is taken they will be too weak to conduct any defense or attack for several turns.
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To me your numbers seam alittle high (10 air) but might be just me. I've seen and played games where Germany only gets a min of 4 to a max of 10. From my point of view you also need to limit the number of CVs (Carriers) in the game if your going to limit the number of air fleets. I assume that there is no limit on SB.
Historical/Balance limits on Fighters (?)
Air Fleets:
Germany 7
Italy 3
UK 4
USA 5
USSR 4 (+Siberians,)
France 1
Carriers
Germany 2
Italy 1
UK 3
USA 4
USSR 0
France 1
Just my numbers, others might aggree or disaggree.
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Who is Wod??
I just recived an ICQ notice from him/her but I don't know that nickname
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This might be (it is) the most balanced std senerio for SC. This week I had the opertunity to play two full games against two of the best players (I played several other games but these two we finished). I was axis in one (CC) and allies in the other (Jon). In both games the other VERY experenced player said my side had the advantage, I have played the senerio more but if that isn't a good indicator of this being a balanced game I don't know what is!Whoever plays me can choose his side, i dont wanna hear that one side is weaker than the other.Axis do have the advantage, simply because they move first and can set the pase for the following turns.
Advantages:
Axis-
Interior lines, can put enormase force on any one location.
Exp Armor- Self explanintory
Postion- They control the flow in the Med and the Eastern front
Allies-
Navy - They control where and when to conduct attacks
Air- They outmatch and out tech the Axis
Minors - They have several options (due to Navy) on places to attack if they wish. But they can't wait around too long as the Red army will fold in time.
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USA joins in March - Damn Japs must not have bombed Peral Harbor this time!
West: Irland DOWed and taken. Brest attacked and isolated by Canadian troops, then taken by UK corps landing using the captured port.
Alantic: Two German BCs spoted in south Alantic, attacked and sunk in two turns by USA/Russian/UK ships. Funny they never moved or counter in three turns!
Med: Sicily left undefended so UK corps lands and attacks Itialian Fleet in port. Closing in on Tripoli, its being attacked by Naval units to reduce Entrenchment, Itialian corps east of the city has been destroyed.
East: The Battle for Moscow has begun! We are trading units with Russia taking the worse due to his now high exp air (they are causing up to 4 points of damage on each corps and not taking any in return). I conduct a 'corps swing' attack from Leningrad, 3 corps come down and whip around the west flank. Moscow gets a one turn reprive as he destoryes these units, but it is much needed as I now have repaired my armys to full strenght. The reprive is short lived as the following turn enough units are destoryed to place an Itilian Army right next to Moscow. The southern front is stable with his damanged (?) units and my corps on thier sides of the river. No axis units can be sighted in the Leningrad Front. Moscow might fall but the Red Army will fight on!
. Several other move's in secret as I plan my next attack.
Time & Money
in Strategic Command 1
Posted