michael kenny

currently on PA here: http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=6266&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 "Zurück zum Inhalt des Threads. Habe in genannten Buch auf S. 170 den Begriff Schwere Panzer-Division gefunden. "Schwer" deshalb, weil 1943/45 zum Panzer-Regiment eine III. Abteilung mit 42 Sturmgeschützen gehörte. Ist das dann ein zeitgenössischer Quellenbegriff oder eine Hilfsbezeichnung von nach 1945?" bablefish mangles this to. "Back to contents of the Threads. Property in book mentioned on S. 170 the term weight armored division found. "heavy", because 1943/45 to the tank regiment a III. Department with 42 assault guns belonged. Then is a contemporary source term or an auxiliary designation of after 1945".

. Reynolds stated that most were destroyed by infantry weapons. Were all the tanks lost and nor recovered? Give me the number of British tanks destroyed by pak/infantry rather than panzers and I will try and work it out. # This would be the highest total of bombed tanks I have ever seen and hardly believable. The German loss figure is not known and thus all attempts are speculation but 75 is not the highest I have seen. As Goodwood attacked into prepared defences I believe minefield losses would enter into the picture and Richard Anderson gave the number British of 'write-offs' for Goodwood as 146 and the German figure as 86. [ May 20, 2007, 04:12 AM: Message edited by: michael kenny ]

The German tank loss figures for these actions are?

I was talking in general terms, i.e the uber-panzer myth with each German tanks surrounded by 5 burning Shermans. Goodwood only has a high exchange trate if you compare every damaged British tank to German total losses. I would be interested in any 'better than 10:1' kill ratios

It would be easy to forget that the Allied Armies pushed the Germans back day by day until they finaly broke and ran. Manpower caualties were more or less even and even the much touted massacre of Allied armour only gave a 2:1 exchange ratio in the German favour. You can find a number of examples where German armour attacked and was decimated but this rarely gets a mention.

A bit more detail for the anoraks......... http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/1152397987/ http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/1171387067/

on 31 May for the total of operational and in repair armor vehicles (Panzer/Stug & Stuh) by theater was: East 1479/1580 = 3059 West 1466/345 = 1811 Southwest 548/452 = 1000 Norway 146/52 = 198 Southeast 65/212 = 277 As reported on 30 September they were: East 1691/1665 = 3356 West 402/168 = 570 Southwest 266/256 = 522 Norway 129/52 = 181 Southeast 18/47 = 65 "Norway" includes Denmark and the Netherlands. losses in armored vehicles inflicted upon the German forces in France, to wit (Panzers/Stug, Stuh & JgPz): June 225/27 July 291/68 August 120/98 September 1299/472 Total 1935/665 = 2600 losses in Italy May 15/11 June 282/91 July 102/39 August 12/18 September 86/22 Total (not including May) 228/170 = 398 losses in the east June 42/79 July 743/910 August 646/298 September 324/387 Total 1755/1674 = 3429 By 15 December the strength situation was: East 1858/2053 = 3911 West 1126/598 = 1724 Southwest 279/334 = 613 Norway 69/42 = 111 Southeast 0/28 =28 Losses during the period were recorded as: East October 448/410 November 134/130 Total 582/540 = 1122 West October 73/147 November 93/92 Total 166/239 = 405 Southwest October 14/9 November 7/3 Total 21/12 = 33 All the above are snipped from posts by RichT90 (Richard Anderson)

The first link is unconnected scenes spliced together. Early war,Eastern Front, Bulge and Normandy footage are cobbled together with no rhyme or reason. It is not even true colour but a poor attempt at colourisation.

Which is not too far away from the Allied AFV loss rates in the Normandy/Northern France/ Braakout/Pursuit fighting.

http://stevenbaffa.tripod.com/bluemaxmilitaria/id26.html 12th book down. Not all about Budapest and a book packed full of official documents and orders. Expensive and very detailed but short on first hand 'at the front' accounts. Has a 30 page book of maps with it as well. [ March 30, 2007, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: michael kenny ]

There is a low res copy in ATB Magazine 48 and a better copy (2mb)from the French site mentioned earlier in the thread http://www.kipperboxes.co.uk/vue_aerienne-8_aout_1944.jpg The copy I use is 16mb and taken from the original held at Keele University.

2:1 for German air to air claims. Seeing an aircraft go down is much easier than making a high speed pass at a ground target and getting a kill. Obviously the confirmation process is much more difficult for a ground target. Still it is a start, so can we now all say Rudel got 250 tanks?

2:1 for German air to air claims. Seeing an aircraft go down is much easier than making a high speed pass at a ground target and getting a kill. Obviously the confirmation process is much more difficult for a ground target. Still it is a start, so can we now all say Rudel got 250 tanks?

The deduction of 50% was never made on the individual claims.

The deduction of 50% was never made on the individual claims.

The argument was resolved by the Germans themselves in 1944. At least a 50% overclaim.

The argument was resolved by the Germans themselves in 1944. At least a 50% overclaim.

Feet back on the ground time. Rudel claims 500+ tank kills. Did he claim 1000 and someone halved it? I think not. So Is Rudel the sole exception to the routine overclaiming? Did he alone never get it wrong? In 'Black Cross Red Star, Air War Over The Eastern Front' (various Volumes) there are detailed charts for German and Soviet kill claims for aircraft alongside the actual losses. Take 1942 for example: German claims = 17313. Russian loss (combat only)= 9100. Russian claim = 8600 German loss (combat only)= 2500 Overclaiming was rife, to deny it is futile.

Feet back on the ground time. Rudel claims 500+ tank kills. Did he claim 1000 and someone halved it? I think not. So Is Rudel the sole exception to the routine overclaiming? Did he alone never get it wrong? In 'Black Cross Red Star, Air War Over The Eastern Front' (various Volumes) there are detailed charts for German and Soviet kill claims for aircraft alongside the actual losses. Take 1942 for example: German claims = 17313. Russian loss (combat only)= 9100. Russian claim = 8600 German loss (combat only)= 2500 Overclaiming was rife, to deny it is futile.

I am talking about Normandy/Northern France/ to Sptember 1 1944 (did I cover all bases there?) rather than 6/6/44 to wars end. Have I seen this chart?

Look at the other side of the road (N158).

Did a quick (and rough) comparison of the Spitfires 36ft width with a Shermans 9ft and you can get the width of the tank tracks 7 times in that 'Spitfires' wing span rather than x4. Clearly it is in flight above the ground.

Spitfire?.........

Apart from the fact you have no evidence that the Allied 'damaged' total came anywhere near 5000+ (did I not give you the US total of 700 damaged and repaired tanks to August?)it may have escaped your attention that the argument above completely vindicates my original premise. Here it is again: The only way you can get anywhere near a 5:1 kill ratio for the panzers in Normandy is to compare the German 'written off' loss to the Allied total of loss and damage to all causes. I am glad to see you got there in the end.